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The Shit hit the fan.

Two planes Crashed into the World Trade Center.
a Third PLane Crashed into the Pentagon.
a Fourth Plane Crashed at Somerset City in Pennsylvania.

End Result?
70,000-50,000 dead.

Reports state that the World Trade Center, when Crashed into, was fully occupied, meaning that over 45-50,000 people were inside when the towers were burning. Subsequently, both Towers collapsed, leaving a Six inch Layer of dust to cover Manhattan.

The Two Planes were hijacked, one enroute from Boston, the other from Washington to L.A., meaning they had passengers when they crashed into the Trade Center.

I'm sure I can speak for everyone here in the organization that we all send our condolences to the families of the victims, and hope for justice to be served.

If I missed some things, please feel free to correct me.


The following comments are for "Today was a BAD day.."
by DJ Emerid

It's ....a terrable thing that's happened to our country today. Worse than Pearl Harbor. To correct, the bulidings WERE NOT, and I repeat only because I was glued to the tv except for the few hours I was at work, but they were not, fully occupied. But still held thousands of lives...
My heart, and prayers goes out to EVERYONE touched by this horendous event..


( Posted by: Nicicole [Member] On: September 11, 2001 )

Centuries of envy in those words.
Mr. Rogan I understand your feelings, but its not your fault. What we have here is a major case of sibling rivalary. You see, both of our countries were formed sort of at the same time. I say sort of, because the early americans fought for independence, were as, the early Canadians continued to enjoy the comforts of their mother's tete. Basically, your forefathers were too afraid to stand on their own two feet. Instead, they kneeled to Mother England's feet and kissed them deeply. They continued to do this until canadians realized there was a bigger nipple much closer.

Over time, your ancestory has been forced to watch as the U.S. grew to proportions that far exceeds your country's abilities. Oh the envy country must feel living in such a gigantic shadow.

What always strikes me as odd, is the way other country's refer to the U.S. as imperialists, that is, until they need a hand out or some assistance.

By the way, you speak of america locking our borders. Oddly, I remember an incident in which a handful of americans (led by Benedict Arnold) attacked a Canadian fort. These Americans walked from Massachuettes through waist deep snow dragging a few cannons, only one of which made it, to attack A canadian fort. This group was quickly repulsed, and almost all of them were killed. The reason I bring this up is it is minor compared to the assault the U.S. felt yesterday, and in canada there is an event held every year celebrating Canada's Great Victory over the American heathens. During this ceremony bullets are fired in the U.S.'s direction. Laughable isn't.

Anyway, I got that off of my chest. Keep stepping on people's toes Rogan I love that sort of thing.

( Posted by: Richard Dani [Member] On: September 12, 2001 )

First off...
Let me say that I do love you, Rogan, no matter how this is going to sound. I don't think we have the luxury at the moment to get into internal debates over this. We don't have the right to say who's right and who's wrong. It's irresponisble to say that those who were killed yesterday deserved what they got.

I'm angry, but at any one person. I'm angry at the entire situation. However, that doesn't mean I can't point out someone who doesn't to have the grasp of what has happened.

At the *least*, 20,000 people are dead.

And you should be ashamed of yourself.

These 20,000 people had no idea of what was happening to them. Many of those 20,000 people were trapped at the top, communicating with loved ones moments prior to their deaths. These people were not responible for enslaving, segregating, or raping the land. They were simply living their lives in their own individual circumstances.

These people had families. Wives, husbands, children. Not to mention the rescue workers who lost their lives trying to save someone else's.

You think these people are faceless. While they stay faceless it's easier for you to mock their circumstances. Make excuses for their deaths, or not even take them seriously.

But you should know better.

It's incredibly cruel to the dead and their families to act the way you acted. It's grossly inhumane to say what you just said. I can not believe that anyone would make the statements you made.

I have a friend who lives in New York that I haven't been able to get into contact with. I have no idea if she's alive, or injured, or anything. And when I apply what you said to her, I am disgusted and hurt, because I can't imagine what it's like for her and all the victims right now.

People are dead. Dead. Murdered. They were needless targets of terrorists. What you don't seem to understand that it's even more likely now to happen again.

And I just hope you have the same attitude when they come after you.

( Posted by: Mila Darjean [Member] On: September 12, 2001 )

........I have to agree with Mila
Rogan, no matter how heartless you pretend to be online,You had no reason or right to say that those people (who's forfather did what you accused THEM of doing) deserved ANY of what happened. It's sickening what you said. Those people had nothing to do with what was going on overseas *IF that ends up being the reason*. My Brother's a Canadian citizen now, and it brought him to tears, NOT because it was America, but because all those people were just going about their business. AND I assure you, Rogan, things are going about smoother than you'd think, Trust me, I work at a major retail chain. We're doing just as well as usual. BUT back on the subject. Those were people Rogan, HUMAN BEINGS like yourself. It doesnt matter, Canadian or American or Brittish, or heck, JAPANESE or ARABIC! We are ALL Human...We're just seperated in our own little 'sub-divisions' IF you will.
IT shouldn't matter to you that those people that died were, for the majority, Americans. IT should only matter to you, that those people where humans, and those fellow humans, are dead now. They won't be waking up and checking out the webpages, or reading books, or watching their favorite tv programs. It matters that they are now gone. And NOTHING that ANYONE does, will bring them back.

( Posted by: Nicicole [Member] On: September 12, 2001 )

I feel like I'm jumping on a bandwagon but...

I don't care about politics or the nature of cultural imperialism or the way certain parts of the world have been fucked over by other parts. Not right now anyway. It seems quite pointless. When there are people in the world that can heartlessly premeditate the murder of thouands, none of that debatable bunk really matters.

Yesterday when I heard what had happened my first reaction was horror followed by a fear that people I know may have been injured or hurt.

This isn't karmic payback for anything. Innocent people should not be paying back for political messes, or historical injustices. I watched T.V last night on the edge of tears because I couldn't comprehend why thousands of people should have died like that. The thought of people phoning from the planes to tell their families they love them still makes me nauseous. And to see those people celebrating in the Arab quarter of Palestine was one of the few times I felt angry in my life.

I've suffered no personal loss, but I feel like someone's blown a massive hole in my chest. And all I'm able to say is, this isn't right. It shouldn't have happened. I'd offer my sympathies to anyone affected, but in a tragedy of of this nature, it seems too empty a gesture. I can only hope that we don't have to see something like this again.

( Posted by: Danvers [Member] On: September 12, 2001 )

what if it was you?
all i have to say is that it doesn't matter whether they were Americans or Canadians or any other nationality for that matter. they were human and just average people living out their daily lives. they didn't DO anything that could have justified the horror they had to endure yesterday.

i have family in New York. i cant reach them. i have no idea where they are or what they were doing yesterday. even if they weren’t in the WTC buildings, they could have been hurt in the chaos of the aftermath. it kills me to think that people are going around making stoopid jokes and acting indifferent. my family could be dead or dying, trapped under debris that will take weeks to sort through. i may never see them again. that may mean nothing to you. but it means everything to me and hundreds of thousands of other people who's lives will never cease to being affected by yesterday's events.

rogan, i dont know that many Candians. but i think, the few that i do know, would be ashamed to know you. i do hope and pray that you reflect on what youve said and realize how completely and totally selfish it was. thousands of completely innocent people (including children btw), are dead, dying and/or forever changed for no reason. have you no love for anyone? imagine if you DID know someone who was there or was lost as result of these events? would it change the way you look at it all? if it doesn’t now… i hope someday it will.

i have lost nearly 12 family and friends in the last 6 years. i would never wish that kind of lost on anyone, deserving or not. im not saying my lost is comparable. im just saying, no one deserves those kinds of deaths.

i know it was stoopid for the media to compare yesterday's events to Pearl Harbor. but what makes the destruction of the WTC buildings so significant, is that the United States was not at war, nor had they chosen to ally themselves with a country that was at war with another.

Pearl Harbor was an act of war, brought about by a series of events. the United States, though arrogant in their belief of invincibility, knew that an attack on their shores was a possibility being that they had made the choice to "take sides", even if they had not yet officially entered the war at that time.

yesterday, the United States had no position against these Terrorists. as of yesterday, the United States had done NOTHING to provoke this kind of attack, except to be and to believe differently than the way these Terrorists believe.

Bush said it right: "This is an attack against freedom." he didnt say an attack against the United States... he said FREEDOM. and i have to believe he meant to include everyone in any country who values their freedom or aspires to someday experience it.

and last time i checked, that meant Canada too.

( Posted by: daisymonster [Member] On: September 12, 2001 )

I'm wearing my usa t-shirt today
Piss on anyone who isn't proud to be an American, especially after all this. I'm half german. My mother was a full blooded German. I spent alot of time over there as a child.

But I'm 100% American. And this pisses me off. I'm not going into any other detail about it. I will post this someone forwarded to me in e-mail today. I'm glad to see this kinda thing. Bout damn time:


America: The Good Neighbor. Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon, not once, but several times and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here. When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake. Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those." Stand proud, America

( Posted by: Chrispian [Admin] On: September 12, 2001 )

Thank you Crowe!

( Posted by: Nicicole [Member] On: September 12, 2001 )

Not like Pearl Harbor?
I do not know why you fail to see the obvious similarities between tuesday's events and pearl harbor, but I'll give'em to ya:

1. Bombings: This event was a missile attack. Sure it was a series of crashed planes, but they were used as missles and should be called that. If I sharpen a stick and stab someone, it's no longer a stick. Right?

2. War: This is an archaic idea, but people use to declare war before bombing you. The japenese failed to do so, and so did the people behind the latest missle attack. Not only is that evil, it is down right rude!

3. Kamakazes: Though the japanese didn't use any in their attack on Hawaii, they would become famous for it later. So, the similarities cannot be ignored. Umm ... a kamakaze is a pilot who flies planes into things, and die themselves. just in case there's a kiddie reading who doesn't know.

Why it exceeds Pearl Harbor:

1. Loss of life: When the bodies are all counted, there will be three to five times the number of people killed in this recent attack. In Pearl Harbor something like 2500 people died. At least 5 to 10,000 people were killed tuesday. I'm guessing of course, and I hope I'm wrong on the high side.

2.Where we were bombed: The japanese attack was the first on the U.S., and this was the first bombing on the continental U.S.

3. Financial: This event is going to cost the U.S. and the rest of the world millions and millions of dollars. For the U.S. its obvious why, but the rest of the world is on the brink of financial collapse. Only the U.S. was holding them up. If our economy goes into the shitter, so will everyone else's.

Lastly, this may not be a world war, but when Afghanastan is bombed, it will not only be by the U.S. It will include at least 6 or seven other major countries. I think that's about the same number of major players that were involved in WWII.

I think that explains why its compared to Pearl Harbor and I don't think its sensationalized at all. And, I apologize for the history lesson. : ) I'll go back to playing with my belly button now. Bye now.

( Posted by: Richard Dani [Member] On: September 13, 2001 )

one more thing.
It's roughly six o'clock were I am, and I just got out of bed. So, I'm sorry about the excessive number of "I thinks" and "nows." But if I don't write before I go to work, I'd never submit a thing. Which may please some people. Sorry for how sloppy the last two paragraphs are, but I hope I made my point.

( Posted by: Richard Dani [Member] On: September 13, 2001 )

I'm feeling slightly confused by the debating going on. It's turned into some kind of nationalistic boxing match.

I totally get where Roganize is coming from. I detest sensationalism. For the past two days T.V has been bombarding us with images of that plane hitting that tower. I've seen it so many times I can recall it exactly from memory and it depresses the shit out of me.

Also, everyone has attitudes and opinions regarding other countries. There is not a single country on this planet that is innocent of crime. We all have good points, we all have the ability to be complete bastards.

The debate on this page is turning sightly jingoistic. This isn't about attacking people for their views, flag waving or singing national anthems or the rest of the rhetoric. This is about some crazy bastards killing thousands of people that had every right to live. People who have been cruelly snatched from their parents, from their children, friends and spouses.

I can't bear to watch the news anymore to see people holding up pictures of people they may never see again. Will drawing paralells to previous tragedies make this make any more sense?

This isn't about feeling sorry for America or for saying America deserved it. It's about people who are so far gone that they can't even see how what they've done is so unbearably evil. There is an area of New York right now that has been turned into a mass grave. Innocent people are dead. Who gives a fuck about nationality. I thought the idea was that at a time like this we're all human and we all share the pain from this attack. Not turn it into a 'who's right?' contest.

( Posted by: Danvers [Member] On: September 13, 2001 )

The point is lost
Danvers, I agree with you. The point is being lost. Not just here in this discussion, but with the media and others. People are using this time to "preach" .. to pitch their own ideals and then some.

This is not right. As you said Danvers, this is about a Mad Man (our group of insane bastards) and the attack on innocent people. Not just American's.

I know people argue that noone is innocent, and that's a fact, but that's not what I meant here. It would be like my wife cheating on me and me deciding to kill as many females as I could. Hell, it wouldn't even be right for me to kill my own wife for cheating. I should know better, I should know how to deal with my pain.

Instead, some rich psychopath who thinks he's been sent by his god to punish the world is bombing people. Not just us, anyone who doesn't give him his way. And if they world turns a blind eye to what happened in the US, then the sad reality is that this monster will turn on them because they will have shown that there is no resolve to stop him. He will be free to do as he pleases.

Except for the US of course. You can be sure we won't stop until he's dead. Whoever he may turn out to be. And all the "they" that helped him will be going with him.


( Posted by: Chrispian [Admin] On: September 13, 2001 )

'But from this point on, I don't want to see any crap directed at ME.'


Now, don't get me wrong here, but are you honestly saying this wasn't your intended result? You drop a bomb like your first post in this topic, and say 'I wouldn't be a Rogan if I didn't take every opportunity to piss people off', and then you seem surprised at the amount of shit that's flung your way.

Again, I'm not jumping you or your opinion, no matter how wrong-headed I think you may be (that's just MY opinion, mind), but if you didn't want a wave of anger thrown at you after TRYING to piss people off in the wake of such an event, maybe you shouldn't have tried so hard to piss people off.

But that's just my line of thinking.

(See, I can be civil)

( Posted by: firebomb [Member] On: September 13, 2001 )

My one thought
Grant Me the Serenity to Accept the Things I cannot Change, The courage to Change the Things I can, and the Wisdom to know the difference.

( Posted by: DJ Emerid [Member] On: September 14, 2001 )

agreeing with rogan
i definitely agree with rogan's sentiment-- the united states has been instigating this for some time. until they move themselves out of business that isn't theirs, we can expect nothing but more of tragedies here and abroad.

( Posted by: visionsofmemoriespast [Member] On: September 30, 2001 )

Hahah .. That's funny!
Visions, Not out business? I agree we need to stay out of how other governments run their countries. And there are plenty of other things we should get out noses out of.

However, if we kept out noses out of it, Nazi Germany would be Nazi Europe right now. We have a moral responsiblity to do the right thing. To help those in need. Not just those who ask for it. Not just those who believe like we do.

We've made mistakes along the way. No doubt. We've gotten involved when it wasn't necessary. We've done things we shouldn't have. There are however a great many things that are our business. For example, any country that owns weapons capable of long range delivery, nukes, chemical/biological weapons etc, should be watched. When a country condones criminal acts, or worse, terrorist acts, it becomes the worlds business. When a mad man gasses hundreds of thousands of Jews, it becomes the worlds business. When a government beats down their own people they are violating the rights they were given at birth. It's not just the American dream to live free from tyranny, its a right that was born into us all. Why do you think everywhere there are dictators there are people fighting to be free of them? Not because we gave them the damn idea. We've only been here 200 years. This country was founded BECAUSE other countries opress their people.

It may seem like I'm political, but if you ask anyone who knows me, they'll tell you I'm not. But I do believe in freedom. And despite America's failures, we are the only ones providing aide the world over to help everyone, not just Americans, but everyone to be free. We aren't just protecting our interests when we fight terrorists.

So many people have piped up saying America deserved this for one reason or another. Bull shit. First off, the trade centers were the homes of so many world companies it's not funny. Most people who think this was directly at the US is crazy. It was directed at the world. But more specifically, this was directed at the US because we help Israel. They did this because they hate Jews. It's hard to believe that so many atrocities have been done because people hate Jews. It's hard to fathom.


( Posted by: Chrispian [Admin] On: September 30, 2001 )

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