Thanks for your comments but most haiku in English isn't written in 5-7-5 syllables and many not even in three lines.
Posted by: dianahayes [Member] On: November 1, 2009
It's debatable Diana!
That's like saying Rap is "true poetry". Unfortunetly, this modern world likes the easy way out...I prefer the classics.
I adore Opera...studied it from the age of 11, but I also love Show tunes and ballads. I just don't equate one with the other. I enjoy them for what they are...but the masters live on through generations and what we strive for in the pursuit of excellence...the latter are just "easy listening."
So too is the art of Haiku...it's the genuine article...that is being adapted into this "lets make it easy on ourselves" modern world. I understand that Shakespeare and the marvelous English poets of old are no longer required reading in High School as they were ten or fifteen years ago. Now lest you think I'm being argumentative...remember I said I really liked your attempt...at the age of 81 (82 in January)I naturally gravitate to all things classical (a euphenism for OLD) so indulge me, besides...I just LOVE a good debate.
Please forgive me I didn't mean to give a ten - sorry - but the opposite. I have to agree with Bea. I don't care for Haiku, but I appreciate those lucid poets that work well in this form - the 5-7-5 and the zen like connection between lines is 'Haiku' - anything else is just short verse. I am not a learned man, but I searched and learned classic and new poetic forms along the years. I know young people are not introduced to classic poetry and are told that modern poets are the only ones of value - that's PC manipulative and a shame. There are so many forms to learn that a poet could work in one, their whole lives, and still not master the form.
Most spoken word poetry is nothing more than dramatic alteration, lacking to me - though entertaining - when I hear a poet recite a good contemporary poem in a classical form I am amazed and moved. The fact that I am one of a few in the audience that recognizes the form is unfortunate.
Learning the forms is a treat and not to be sneered at - a 'Too cool for the form' attitude does a poet a disservice and can regrettably cause readers to discount their work - honor what came before. In truth if one takes the time to read the great poets that came before, then the only thing you will experiences is humility. Sometimes when you are among peers you have to show your chops - then show your art- your personal take on a form.
I would not step up on a stage for the 'Blues' - sing a tweek-ed out R&B tune and wonder why no one listened I honor your work and would ask that you keep posting and take the comments from the terrific poet writers here as support and form the position that they are here to have you be a better poet - a masterful poet. We are all on your side.
Posted by: jonpenny [Member] On: November 1, 2009
-two shay. Dave, your experience in life allows you such a definite observatory eye- chops before art; indeed accomplished through a measure of integrity to your/are predecessors. Thank you for commenting on this format.
Diana, I hope you find your voice in this. We all have room to grow- god knows I do!!! As Dave mentioned, the intent here is to grow. That is what makes this site so great! And remember, humility is the key if we are to grow. Thank you for sharing.
I didnt comment on this piece my friend, I think you were talking about Ken. ;)
Posted by: HeRoCoMpLeX [Member] On: November 2, 2009
I didn't think this would cause such controversy. I've read such lovely haiku that doesn't follow the 5-7-5 structure but perhaps you wouldn't consider this to be haiku at all?
I'm new to all of this but I would say that English syllables and Japanese onji aren't the same so why stick to the 5-7-5 form? There are also more places where a Japanese phrase can be divided without changing its meaning, unlike English which is less flexible. Therefore I'm quite baffled by the importance of sticking to this structure and feel that haiku has other more important attributes.
I love reading haiku because it can make us see, feel or touch a moment so vividly and directly, not for the number of syllables on each line.
Posted by: dianahayes [Member] On: November 2, 2009
Way to stand up for yourself. ;)
I don't care for this form, but you made me look it up and learn a bit more than I knew. You mentioned American Haiku and the syllabic forms in Japanese and how that affects this form in other languages.
!.Three lines up to 17 syllables, usually 10-14
2. 5-7-5 or 3-5-3
3. 4 or more lines,
4 circular - no starting point ,no ending point
5.or fixed 5-3-5 3-5-3 variations
(ie.. 3 space 5, next line 5 space 3)
6. nature, nature, nature!
I agree with you that the form can be beautiful and compelling and there are still rules to this form.
I think you are wonderful for triggering this debate and having this old guy learn something new.
Thanks and I look forward to more from you.
Posted by: jonpenny [Member] On: November 2, 2009
To each his own!
Hi Diana...I'm fully aware of the new forms being used today...I'm merely pointing out that they are not TRUE Haiku, but adaptations.
I love that you are posting them in YOUR style...you keep sending them and I'll keep reading them...we should all strive for improvement no matter what style we publish them in.
In light of this...if you have time to go into my archives, there is a poem (Youth vs. Age) that I think will satisfy us both...I might even re-publish it myself.