Lit.Org - a community for readers and writers Advanced Search
 




Average Rating
0.00

(0 votes)

You must login to vote

who invented god?
and where is he now?
a rose, even a bud
only if we knew how

to look ... but also see


Related Items

Comments

The following comments are for "to look but also see"
by waelnawara

"who invented God"
Wael,

Indeed.

Unfortunately, most people can explain what they mean by "God" in hopelessly vague terms: by use of metaphors, symbolism, floating abstractions, or by talking only about what God is NOT.

If God is needed to explain the existence of the universe, then what explains the existence of God? After all, if God does exist, he's at least as marvelous and impressive as the universe, and therefore no less in need of an explanation. But then, as you question in your poem, who or what created God? And who or what created whatever created God? We're stuck in infinite regress.

But, if that's no good and we have to begin somewhere, isn't it more reasonable to accept the existence of the universe as the starting point of the everything? Begin with existence itself as the ultimate, irreducible primary. The universe IS. This is where we must begin.

Thank you for this!

Best,
Ariana

( Posted by: Ariana [Member] On: December 12, 2008 )

Hi Wael and Ariana
Thought provoking poem Wael. I am drawn to these discussions as a moth to a flame Ariana, I just cannot help myself.
I know we cannot determine through reason alone, the existence or not of God, but I do love the reasonableness of the existence of God.
Ariana, you are willing to accept the universe "as the starting point of the everything". You even said it was reasonable. "The universe IS".
Yet to entertain that God is "the starting point of the everything" or that God IS, is foolishness to you.
This in itself is unreasonable, if one thing could be the starting point, why not another?
So we must look for further evidence.
I have a standing challenge to lit.orgers. Show me order in this world that came by chance. And as I once said to Shannon, something a little more compelling than the virgin Mary on a grilled cheese sandwich.
Because I believe that this is a truth from God...that where there is order, behind that order there is a mind, a purpose, and a will.
Can we argue with this? I just ask, show me.
With all good intent, Robert.

( Posted by: robnjop [Member] On: December 12, 2008 )

Wael and Ariana
Thought provoking poem Wael. I am drawn to these discussions as a moth to a flame Ariana, I just cannot help myself.
I know we cannot determine through reason alone, the existence or not of God, but I do love the reasonableness of the existence of God.
Ariana, you are willing to accept the universe "as the starting point of the everything". You even said it was reasonable. "The universe IS".
Yet to entertain that God is "the starting point of the everything" or that God IS, is foolishness to you.
This in itself is unreasonable, if one thing could be the starting point, why not another?
So we must look for further evidence.
I have a standing challenge to lit.orgers. Show me order in this world that came by chance. And as I once said to Shannon, something a little more compelling than the virgin Mary on a grilled cheese sandwich.
Because I believe that this is a truth from God...that where there is order, behind that order there is a mind, a purpose, and a will.
Can we argue with this? I just ask, show me.
With all good intent, Robert.

( Posted by: robnjop [Member] On: December 12, 2008 )

of God and universe
Rob,

First to all, I apologize if my post has offended you. This was not my intention. It is how I understood the poem, although reading it again with fresh eyes, I see that the verse 'a rose, even a bud' echoes primitive Pantheism: the idea that God could be everywhere only if he were everything. That's another interpretation at which I arrived.

Rob, I am agnostic. To me, living consciously entails asking 'What are the grounds for belief, what is the evidence'. I have my views, which, yes, have tainted my reply to the poem. You have yours.

For some, God is merely an intellectual construct that does not affect them in any significant way. For others, it is a source of comfort. For others, a source of reproach and terror. For others, a cause to believe that someone in the universe loves them. For others, a justification for the consoling idea that everything happens for a reason and that seeming tragedies have higher purpose. For others, the ultimate spiritual context that holds the total of their existence.

I'm not trying to debate. Again, my reply reflects my understanding of the poem. I won't deny that my personal views have influenced my reply.

Best,
Ariana

( Posted by: Ariana [Member] On: December 13, 2008 )

response to Ariana's reflections
waelnawara,

interesting, but is lacking in succinct reasoning.

ariana,

interesting arguments put forward. Like for like.

firstedition

( Posted by: firstedition [Member] On: December 13, 2008 )

Ariana
No Ariana, you in no way offended me, and I am the one who apologizes if my comment made it sound so. I love having the chance to talk on this subject. What I wrote was written with the utmost affection for you, and for God. And for truth. If I came off as argumentative I am so sorry.
But my challenge Ariana? One example of order in this world that arose by chance? ; )
Please don't mistake my passion as anger. No need to answer this, just wanted to let you know you didn't offend or anger me. Robert

( Posted by: robnjop [Member] On: December 13, 2008 )

who invented the idea
@ Ariana & Rob

Thanks a lot my friends for your comments and questions.

One day, one man or one woman, sat down and thought: there must be a super-being responsible for the creation of this wonder ... our universe.

But it must be an archetype deeply rooted inside our collective subconscious because almost with no exception, it exists in every culture and in every myth!

So, in a way, no one really invented the concept. The story tellers merely brought the concept out from the darkness of the human subconscious to the light … or maybe to another darker existence, to the caves, temples and shrines.

But like everything else, initial conditions, no matter how chaotic or arbitrary they maybe, influence the path. Wherever we may have started, have affected the entire journey. So, we still owe a lot of the mythology and the metaphors to the ancient story-tellers.

If you think about it, ancient Egyptians and other ancient civilizations influenced the Hebrew and Christian mythology, rituals and symbols. But that is the subject of a much wider debate in which we may enter later.

But does god exist everywhere? In every flower, mountain, ocean or a droplet of dew?

I think god indeed exists everywhere. I personally define god in the "order" which is contained in this universe. Since the very beginning, "order" has revealed itself amongst "chaos". In fact, "chaos" and "randomness" are parts of the "order" itself. In every atom, in every quantum of energy, I see the "order". I can never deny that. In every organization of matter and energy to form the smallest atom, in every organization of molecules to form the smallest cell, I see "order". We may define "god" in very different ways. But no one can deny that there is "order". Whether this order was born with the universe or existed before the universe (when, if time had not existed? But never mind.) makes little difference. There is order. And it does reveal itself clearly.

Blessed be the "Order", which gives meaning to existence, life, love, goodness and favorable probabilities.


Thanks again for your comments

( Posted by: waelnawara [Member] On: December 13, 2008 )

FE: Succinct Reasoning
@ firstedition

Thanks for your comments.

I think I must agree with you. The last line makes what sounds like a universal conclusion without preparing the reader with any evidence ... I do not know why I wrote it like that, come now to think of it :)

Thanks for pointing it out.

All the best my friend

w

( Posted by: waelnawara [Member] On: December 13, 2008 )

Order Rising by Chance
@ Rob

Dear Rob,

I think I know what you mean, rejecting the idea of "order" rising by chance. But in fact, self-organization, with the right conditions, is one of the a properties of this universe.

wiki:
Self-organization is a process of attraction and repulsion in which the internal organization of a system, normally an open system, increases in complexity without being guided or managed by an outside source. Self-organizing systems typically (though not always) display emergent properties.

Please read about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organization

Thanks

All the best

w


( Posted by: waelnawara [Member] On: December 13, 2008 )

Wael
Hi Wael, that wiki article is certainly a mouthful. And I could not even follow it very well. But what I did gleam from it is this.
Some examples of what they call "self organization" in biology is as follows.
"1. spontaneous folding of proteins and other biomacromolecules"
"2.formation of lipid bilayer membranes".
"3.homeostasis (the self-maintaining nature of systems from the cell to the whole organism)"

I will stop there because there are many but they are all such things as this.
But it is plain Wael, that these are things found in nature, which of course they act in certain ways because they are DESIGNED to act that way. This only makes my point.
They go on to talk of self organization in "human society", in "economics", in "collective intelligence" etc.
These are not compelling examples of order rising out of chaos. There is an intelligence behind all of this order, that of human society. Again, this only emphasizes my point.

More proof is that the second law of thermodynamics is that all things tend to entropy. They all tend to fall apart. This is Law, like gravity.

Thanks Wael for being so kind. It is all interesting. Robert.

( Posted by: robnjop [Member] On: December 13, 2008 )

self-organization
There are many examples for self-organization in Physics and Chemistry LEADING TO self-organization in Biology, Sociology, Economics, etc.

Because of gravity, matter has a tendency to come together, getting organized, usually in a spherical shape, such as the planets and stars. It is because on the surface of a sphere, as a geometrical, mathematical and physical model, at any moment of time, the distance between any arriving particle and the centre of the sphere (center of gravity) is equal to the distance between any other arriving particle to the surface at the same point of time. Gravity in Newtonian physics is inversely proportional to distance squared.

Spontaneous structure formation in astrophysics and cosmology including star formation, galaxy formation all show tendency to self-organize as a result of gravity.

The problem with Entropy is this. The principle of Entropy applies perfectly on the dissipative tendency of heat energy. The principle simply says that Energy tends to dissipate. The second law of thermodynamics which gave birth to the concept of Entropy is based on perfect gasses in state of equilibrium. Solids do not necessarily follow that. Systems which are not in a state of equilibrium, that they are in a state of change, do not necessarily follow that either. As a result, processes considered part of thermodynamically open systems, such as the earth itself which is constantly receiving and dissipating solar energy, can and do exhibit properties of self organization far from thermodynamic equilibrium.


Examples of Self-organization in physics include structural phase transitions, and spontaneous symmetry breaking such as spontaneous magnetization, crystallization, crystal growth, laser & superconductivity. Self-organization in physics also includes turbulence, spontaneous formation of vortices.

In chemistry, Self-organization can be seen in molecular self-assembly, autocatalytic networks, liquid crystals, colloidal crystals, self-assembled monolayers, etc.

A LASER (acronym for “light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation”) can also be characterized as a self organized system where coherent growth, amplification or gain of the electromagnetic wave at the transition frequency is seen.



I have attempted to summarize what came in that web-page for our readers:
Source: wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organization

**********

I want to say that we do not see what we do not want to see.

Hence the title of this piece:

look but also see

( Posted by: waelnawara [Member] On: December 13, 2008 )

on self-organization
But Wael, when I look at all the examples you gave, or that the article gave, I see what you and they may call "self-organization" is in fact creation following laws that govern its behavior. These laws I also see as created. This is what I see when I look.
That is not what you see, and that leads to my point.
Which is this, since neither of us can prove our respective arguments, (I that it is creation-you that it simply is) we must look for proof somewhere.
And I think a scientist would go to a laboratory to test. The laboratory I want to take us to is this world and what humans have wrought.
This is what I am saying when I ask of an example of order in this world that rose only from chaos.
A bridge, a painting, a book, a poem. Mechanical operations of engines, weapons, scientific experiments, computers.
And if it is true that in all of our natural world not one thing has been known to come to existence on its own, then I see this as evidence. And what I have learned in the laboratory of human existence, I must apply to the natural world also.
And what I have learned is this (caps for attention only, I am not shouting) WHERE THERE IS ORDER, BEHIND THAT ORDER IS A MIND, A PURPOSE, AND A WILL.
And why would I doubt that a computer could just be, if a brain could just be?
The best to you Wael. Robert.

May I just say that in your comment you said that chaos and randomness are part of the order itself. That is interesting, never thought about that before. Thanks.


( Posted by: robnjop [Member] On: December 14, 2008 )

Just Different Names
I think we have wide common grounds ... perhaps disagreeing on labels ...

Yes. I believe that Randomness and Chaos are important components of the order.


I propose that the universe came with a set of "Rules", which govern the workings and interactions between all matter, energy and bodies, large or small. If an intelligent super-being did in fact create the universe, it seems that the Super-Being installed it with the dynamic rules and laws such that no further intervention was required thereafter.

I like to think of those rules such that they come in the form of "possible" paths for all things to happen. And because there are always so many paths for any single event, that we have to describe our universe in terms of "Probability", that certain paths are more probable to be taken than others. And as V would say, in Wachowski brothers' Masterpiece, "V for Vendetta", "There no Certainty, only Opportunity".

But even if the odds are extremely high for a certain path, other paths are also taken, less frequently, but they do eventually occur. This seeming chaos is responsible for the way the universe evolved, for life and evolution on this earth.

Genetic mutation, is a process whereby "an error" occurs in making genetic "copies". This error, is an example of an improbable path. Such error could be responsible for a hereditary disease suffered by the off-spring, or a deformed baby or a miscarriage. But this genetic "error" can also be responsible for giving birth to a new specie in the evolution process. We see it everyday in the Lab in viruses and bacteria. And as errors mount and accumulate over a period of about a billion years, life forms went through a tedious process of selection and evolution, at the end of which Mankind emerged as an intelligent being, capable of inventing networked computers which enable you to read this article, coming at the end of a chain which probably started with a single cell amoeba.

If this "error"
We observed that the universe came with a set of "Rules", which govern the workings and interactions between all matter, energy and bodies, large or small.

That these rules come in the form of "possible" paths for all things to happen. And because there are always so many paths for any single event, that we have to describe our universe in terms of "Probability", that certain paths are more probable to be taken than others. And as V would say, in Wachowski brothers' Masterpiece, "V for Vendetta", "There no Certainty, only Opportunity".

But even if the odds are extremely high for a certain path, other paths are also taken, less frequently, but they do eventually occur. This seeming chaos is responsible for the way the universe evolved, for life and evolution on this earth.

Genetic mutation, is a process whereby "an error" occurs in making genetic "copies". This error, is an example of an improbable path. Such error could be responsible for a hereditary disease suffered by the off-spring, or a deformed baby or a miscarriage. But this genetic "error" is also responsible for giving birth to a new specie in the evolution process. And as errors mount and accumulate over a period of about a billion years, life forms went through a tedious process of selection and evolution, at the end of which Mankind emerged as an intelligent being, capable of inventing networked computers which enable you to read this article, coming at the end of a chain which probably started with a single cell amoeba.

Without Randomness, these paths would have never existed. Evolution would have never occurred. In fact, we would have no choice since the world would be so deterministic that we have no choice.

Chaos and Randomness are part of the Order. Without them we would not have the World evolving in the way it has. From stars and galaxies to simple and complex life forms producing intelligent beings capable of inventing computers, networks and languages of communication all of which such beings use in debating these intriguing ideas

Thanks a lot Bob for your thoughts

all the bes

w

( Posted by: waelnawara [Member] On: December 14, 2008 )

Integrating Probability into Morality and New Age Religions
Hello Again

Can I invite you to read this article:

http://www.lit.org/control/index.php?action=viewarticle&article=43198

Thanks

w

( Posted by: waelnawara [Member] On: December 14, 2008 )





Add Your Comment

You Must be a member to post comments and ratings. If you are NOT already a member, signup now it only takes a few seconds!

All Fields are required

Commenting Guidelines:
  • All comments must be about the writing. Non-related comments will be deleted.
  • Flaming, derogatory or messages attacking other members well be deleted.
  • Adult/Sexual comments or messages will be deleted.
  • All subjects MUST be PG. No cursing in subjects.
  • All comments must follow the sites posting guidelines.
The purpose of commenting on Lit.Org is to help writers improve their writing. Please post constructive feedback to help the author improve their work.


Username:
Password:
Subject:
Comment:





Login:
Password: