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Sure they are illegal, but most have been here for years without a problem. I'm not related to any illegal immigrants nor do I know any, but I still think that they have some inherent right to stay here.

The raids on businesses are pure madness. Is this the 20's and prohibition? We are prohibiting these immigrants and their families and hindering these businesses, that is bad for our economy. If you want illegal workers you only need to look at McDonalds and big manufacturing companies, but then again; who wants to work at McDonalds?

Sure if they are a threat then kick them out, but otherwise leave them alone. A suggestion, instead of kicking them out, you could instead make them pay a temporary worker tax, for the time that they do work in the U.S.

We have really lost it, and a lot of politicians have lost my vote.

Cynthia R. Yildirim

*~Love is the hidden element~*

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The following comments are for "OMG What Have We Done?"
by LovesEssence

Better yet . . .
Let's see what happens to the industries that rely on illegal immigrant workers who do shit jobs for shit pay. They're hired because no one else will do their work.

That's what I love best about the US -- constantly shooting itself in the foot while whining, "Stop! It hurts!"

( Posted by: Viper9 [Member] On: April 22, 2006 )

As G. Gordon Liddy said recently; "prosecute the employers who hire these illegals and your illegal alien problem is solved. If no one hires them, they'll stop coming."

It's bad enough that blue collar American workers have had their jobs outsourced and sent overseas to third world slavewage workers. The last thing we need here in the US is to have a new social underclass of slavewage workers that will only drive the current low pay-scales down even further.
It's a myth that these workers do the work that no other American wants to do. BIG LIE. The truth is that these illegal workers keep the pay-scales low because they are willing to work for slave wages, which to them is just dandy pay since most of them send most of the money they earn in the US back to their families in Mexico.

I agree with Gordon Liddy that the problem lies with the employers who knowingly hire these illegals.
No employment available to these illegals slavewage workers equals no more illegal immigration problem from Mexico. SECURE OUR BORDERS. SECURE OUR JOBS!

( Posted by: TINKER [Member] On: April 22, 2006 )

G. Gordon Liddy Petition to Senate & House of Representatives

( Posted by: TINKER [Member] On: April 22, 2006 )

Scab Labor Force?
Good point TINKER.
When there is a scab labor force available to exploitive employers, the union workers lose their power to negotiate for higher wages. I would definitely equate the low wages associated with many low level jobs in America as being a direct result of the illegal alien worker availability problem. Get rid of the scabs and watch as these "jobs that nobody wants to do" begin to offer more decent wages. I think that most Americans don't mind hard work, it's the low wages that they mind.

( Posted by: BHansen [Member] On: April 22, 2006 )

Love's OMG

You have touched on an issue (like many others) that cannot be solved by the current bipolar politics of extremism. I am shocked to find myself in partial agreement with TINKER and (forgive me- I never imagined saying this) Mr. Liddy- follow the money. If we wish to staunch the flow of illegal immigration (I say 'if'- that's a big part of the debate), we must end the economic incentive to do so. The employers of illegals dangle the dollars that promote the illicit influx. On the other hand, shoving twelve million or so disgruntled Mexicans back to their homeland seems impractical, and likely to destabilize our struggling southern neighbor.

I lack sufficient information to form, let alone express, an informed opinion- but I'm working on that. Thank you for sharing your opinion.

I would rather concentrate on excluding Canadians! (They will charge you nine US$ for dry salty ham and call it Canadian bacon. And then there's Celine Dijon... :-)

( Posted by: drsoos [Member] On: April 22, 2006 )

Two valid points-of-view
On one hand, I think the illegal workers do contribute to the economy.

On the other hand, allowing these workers to provide incredibly cheap labor to greedy employers is no different whatsoever from outsourcing to enslaved third world labor. It's effectively the same situation, they just happen to be right here due to the nature of the industries (often farming) and the locality of the workers (Mexico).

This situation disempowers unionized Americans who know that only a democratic workplace can provide them with a truly FREE existence in this country, which is ruled by the rich, for the rich and of the rich. They consider themselves to be a higher lifeform than the rest of us, and they regard the rest of us as cattle (or chattel).

The fact that Bush supports the legalization measure shows me that it's something his billionaire friends want. They want cheap labor, and they don't want to pay American workers what they're worth. People on both sides of the line and of this issue need to wake up and take a really hard look at this all around.

( Posted by: the alienist [Member] On: April 22, 2006 )

I'm in total agreement with Alienist and Soos. That's what I was trying to get. Whaddaya expect? I'm a shitty communicator!

And Soos is right. It's time we put those Canadians in their place.

( Posted by: Viper9 [Member] On: April 22, 2006 )

I happen to live about 70 miles from Mexican border. I live in a big house that I paid a lot of money for, but about $15,000 less than if I had bought the same home about 20 miles from here. About $35,000 than if I had bought the same home in any other city in the U.S.

The reason: illegal laborers who are here building the homes and businesses to expand our growing cities (Phoenix, Tucson, Las Vegas, El Paso and many others). I personally know seven men who were dry wall installers (3)and framers (4), which are normally highly skilled trades that earn a good paycheck. They have all been forced to either "retrain" into car sales (2 did) or to relocate to continue their trade (5 did). Those that relocated have since relocated again, one went to Salt Lake City to continue his trade as a framer, and now I have heard he is moving to Michigan because he can't find a job in SLC because of illegal labor.

No, these illegal "undocumented" people are not here doing the work that Americans won't do, they are steeling the jobs from under our feet. And, yes, they are definitely driving the wages way down.

Yes, the employers, like Pulte homes, Home Depot, and others should be heavily fined and their business licenses cancelled.

Also, we hear on the news that "these immigrants also go to war and fight for this country"...wrong, I am retired military and worked with a lot of foreign born soldiers -- they must first become U.S. citizens in order to serve in the U.S. military.

We hear "These people pay taxes just like you."
Wrong again -- go to any mall parking lot in Tucson, Phoenix, El Paso and count the number of vehicles that have Mexican plates. They "claim" an address across the border so they can register their vehicle and not pay the taxes we pay. This applies to brand new vehicles as well, unless the state charges an "import" fee, which all of us pay.

Yep, it is a huge problem and we need to pay attention on the next elections, starting in 2006, to those who are running for office. Listen to what they "propose" to solve the problem. If they sound at all like political correctness is driving their agenda then DO NOT VOTE for that person. If they talk about the "contributions" that immigrants bring, or the "diverse" culture we have, or that we are a "richer country" because of immigration DO NOT VOTE for that person. It is all BS (called rhetoric to the politically correct).

Well, yup I am part of the problem because I bought this house -- hell, I have to live somewhere. And when I wanted to hire landscapers I called a place called "Mitchell Landscape Designs" and the entire crew spoke only one language, and I was unable to communicate with them, only to the foreman. One guy had an electrical cable laying in a puddle of water and everytime he started cutting a brick the circuit would pop and all my power would quit. I couldn't make him understand that running the electrical chord through a puddle was causing a power surge -- I had to chase down his boss who was supervising across the street.

Sorry to get so cranked up on this, but it is the most important problem our country is facing at this time, and will only get worse. My plan is to sell my house in the next six months and move very far north of here. I have some job interviews next month for that reason. I am not confident our government will do anything, and the main reason I know is because I work for the Feds (I wrote about the rampent incompetence in my "The Wheels of Govenment Turn Slowly" article).

All done venting for now


( Posted by: BWOz [Member] On: April 22, 2006 )

I have to agree...
I am not one to turn down any one for any reason...hell this country was built by immigrants, it has the most diverse culture in the world...we are every country under one nation!! But, to see that illegals are raping our economy (and I do realize they have some contributions to our economy...but it's quite petty) it sickens me. American citizens have to fight like hell just to get a decent pay and ...if their lucky, a living wage, but many companies fight twice as hard to keep living wages from passing because they know what the cost of living is for the average American.
It's funny how our poverty level is based mostly on the cost of food, which has been fairly stable for years, whereas the price of housing, utilities, medical....GAS, has skyrocketed. I have no problems helping out other countries...none at all, but ,if you can't do anything for your own country..., then, "Houston, we have a problem."

( Posted by: Terayne [Member] On: April 23, 2006 )

Setting An Example
It's instructive to consider cases in which major US corporations are unable to get cheap labour in the US. Do they suck it up and pay people a living wage? No. Instead, they outsource the labour to countries that make it easier to exploit workers -- such as Taiwan.

In those cases, Americans are quite happy to crow about the contributions such companies make to the economy by supplying cheap goods that they're happy to gobble up. They don't pay attention to the fact that the money used to pay the workers isn't being fed into the US economy (though the per-worker income is low, it adds up when you add 10,000 workers together), and the fact that those jobs are off limits to Americans.

Plus, though these corporations are based in the US, they're usually classified as multinationals in order to avoid paying most of their taxes in the US (Bush has made this much easier for them), so the US economy doesn't benefit from most of these corporations.

You have to ask, "What's likely to happen if these illegal immigrants are no longer part of our economy?" Americans won't see corporations suddenly become eager to pay American workers a living wage. They'll outsource whatever they can and probably get the government to subsidize costs that they can't outsource, as is frequently the case in the land of corporate welfare.

"Cracking down" on illegal immigrants is a pointless diversion, as the Bushies know. Another in a long line of diversionary tactics to keep people from focusing on the real issue -- in this case, mollycoddled corporations continuously fed from the political trough.

( Posted by: Viper9 [Member] On: April 23, 2006 )

I see your point...
That is very true...corporations and their lust for money is a constant burden on the citizens of this country. It is hard to find cheap labor because the cost of living anywhere in the U.S. is too high. I struggle like hell to support a family of 5 on $8 an hour. Most Americans have to have 2 or 3 jobs just to make ends meet. If the cost of living was driven down, then the need for a higher wage would diminish, but would the want of cheap labor decline? It wouldn't help the CEO of some corporation to pay for that $2 million dollar home...or their private boat or that rolex they sport for their vain expressions of wealth.
I guess it doesn't help to have a president that grosses $400 grand a year as president, but pulls in $400 million a year in his side business(I'm sure we can all guess what that buisness is).
Maybe if it cost more to outsource, there would be a fall in jobs leaving the U.S. Or if our government pulled all fiscal help to companies that take jobs away from this country...that might help. But, as you said...when we, as consumers, "gobble up" these cheap by products of foreign countries, we hurt our economy just as much.
There are many more problems than illegal immigrants to consider...and I thank you for pointing out that oversight. There seem to be so many problems to just seems easier to focus on one, not realizing the larger scope of the problem.

( Posted by: Terayne [Member] On: April 23, 2006 )

illegal imagrants make up our nieghbors and friends many of my latino friends have imagrant parents or parent who i have problems with ae the american extremisits who watch the borders as if hell is just out of sight the people who comb the dessert for imagrants when their own fore fathers were imagrents thats what ticks me off

( Posted by: schindees [Member] On: April 23, 2006 )

and out sourcing
major issues with out sourcing it has destroyed parts of the music industry with poor quality control most ovr seas made guitars are wothless and health hazords

( Posted by: schindees [Member] On: April 23, 2006 )

Good points, Terayne. I really have no idea how to solve these problems, and sometimes I find it hard to prevent myself from becoming cynical, you know?

The situation with illegal immigrants sucks for the exploited immigrants, it sucks for the Americans who need jobs, and in many ways it sucks for the governments who aren't receiving income tax from these under-the-table employees.

The only winners are the corporations (and small businesses, too)who save money by hiring these people, and thus fill their own pockets.

Good point Schindees as well. None of us Import North Americans would be here if not for our forefathers, who stole the land from its inhabitants in the first place. We're blinded by our double standards.

( Posted by: Viper9 [Member] On: April 23, 2006 )

mexican crafts manship
is the next best up to american premium grade guitars and bases ide take a mexican guitar over a japannese or chiinese guitar any day

( Posted by: schindees [Member] On: April 23, 2006 )

Terayne, Viper, you both make good points, although Viper I don't totally agree that Bush made it easier for the off shore businesses to escape taxation -- it was going on long before he was "elected". The difference is that just like Clinton, Bush Sr., Reagan and every other since Nixon these presidents' administrations (and congress) passed the laws that have allowed the American industrial base to move off shore. They have also made it possible for foreign companies to own HUGE segements of our industry, in this country, all in the name of "global" TRADE. It is called the "NEW WORLD ORDER". In other words, it is impossible to bring the rest of the world up to the living standards that westernized countries enjoy, so the plan is to lower our standards by forcing our industries, societies, and economies to be based off shore.

In the U.S. we used to have a government agency called The FTC (Foreign Trade Commission) that was their to ensure the U.S. was on a "level playing field" with other countries. In other words, to keep cheaply made foreign products from saturating our markets so that American workers jobs were protected and a person could reasonably expect to work for a good company until retirement without threat of his/her job being shipped off shore. Now even high level engineering jobs are lost to India, China, and other nations.

We better face the music now, because the New World Order does not have a place in its grand plan for "American Soverenty"..

just my steam again


( Posted by: BWOz [Member] On: April 23, 2006 )

Indentured Servents
Excllent Rant. Our immigration policy reminds me alot of when America was first being colonized. The nobels would send over a few wealthy land owners along with that the nobels would bring over indentured servants to work the land for free untill one day they earned their freedom. It seems like this trend of letting them in and every so often letting them free is something of a puzzle and a step back into history. Is it true that again we have not learned from history. If we don't remeber soon will it be to bold to say that slavery will all of a sudden be ok'd because they are a cheap labor force. Something already tells me it has already started to.

( Posted by: Mr36 [Member] On: April 24, 2006 )

Oh yes, absolutely -- the problems with offshore businesses didn't start with Bush 2. I'd say they started with Woodrow Wilson's administration. Bush just made it easier for them to take advantage of ordinary people and to feed off the public trough.

Every administration since Reagan has helped them out -- including Clinton (I know some people don't like to accept it, but Clinton was no better than Bush 2, just subtler).

This has been an interesting discussion! Thanks, LovesEssence, for getting it started.

( Posted by: Viper9 [Member] On: April 24, 2006 )

Hear, hear!!! I agree...a great topic with humble attitudes and honest opinions!!!

( Posted by: Terayne [Member] On: April 24, 2006 )

Thanks for Comments to all
Thank-you all for your comments for or against my rant. All opinions have value and each has the power to sway their audience even a step in their way. You all have made valid points, let's go politic'ing again sometime. :)hehe

( Posted by: lovesessence [Member] On: April 25, 2006 )

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