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OK, I’m back. Whew! What a stir. I don’t know where to put this nor if it is allowed this way so will see what happens. Thanks to everyone for your comments .

Viper9: Bigot. According to my dictionary, that's not much of a slam, Sir, since this is not merely an opinion blindly held with no experience ... and I don’t have a mustache (LOL. Sorry, just a small attempt at levity). Did you read the whole thing? Or emotionally react to what is politically incorrect these days. P.S. As to: “As Nietzsche wrote, "There was only one true Christian, and he died on the cross". All others are Paul's perversions.” If I may ... there was only one PERFECT Christian. Paul had more “light” than a lot of us unless there are others out there that have been knocked off their horse in the middle of the road than I’ve heard about. Even he was “sent off” to “another land” for a period of time after that “shocking experience” and “the church” enjoyed a time of quiet during his absence (Acts 9:30ish.;;-)

Nae: Ah, His Real love is exactly the issue here. It breaks my heart to see what a poor job all of the churches have done to demonstrate just that. And, I might add, a rotten job of just exactly what that is ... and is not.

RJKT: Each example you give from history is a really good example of the lack of understanding and “going astray” the church goes through periodically (and as we now are!) when “the people” follow blindly and their leaders go astray. Do you also recall that each time the church falls under persecution it emerges stronger and better aligned with The Truth than it was before? If those 12 who actually lived with Him for 3 years didn’t understand, what makes you think we – 2000 years removed will get it right all the time? BTW, what makes you think that love is the equivalent of “just say yes” all the time. Are you a parent? Besides, if I may just add this aside, faith by its very definition is not the result of reason.

Paul: You are exactly right God gave us our sexuality. And just like everything else He created, we have the choice to use or misuse everything He gave us. Not everything that is CALLED love is really love. It is one of the places the English language falls short. It lumps a lot of “stuff” into one word. If I may point out to you, mother-love, I think we can agree is a good thing. Yes? But an unwise mother can turn that into “smother-love” and stunt the growth of the child. You are also correct when you say, “those that believe in other gods or no gods at all also have that right.” But should you decide (please note I said “DECIDE”) to be a Christian then you will find it’s an “in for a penny, in for a pound” situation. Faith comes first, and then the facts begin to fall into place, and guess what ... the feelings will all fall in line. It is NEVER too late to start doing the right thing. And it’s not any more difficult than it is to do the wrong thing for the first time. Doing the right things gets easier with practice just like the other way around. Thanks for commenting.

Andyhavens: Now, ya see, Sir, that’s exactly what I’m fighting for. I came bearing NO rocks. Those who feel persecuted see rocks where there are none. The simple fact that you “don’t know” whether homosexuality is good or bad tells me that you spend a great deal more time reading the “daily news” than carefully studying the scripture you quote. I believe I explained that homosexuality is the worst because it was the most self-centered of all. I’m not quite sure why the homo-advocates are so fond of quoting half-truths but it’s a part of what leads me to be so adamantly against it. Grace (if you KEEP reading) is not license! As to “We fixate on "sins” etc, this is not my motive. If I keep silent, I would be placing the millstone around my own neck. You see, a part of my problem with the person I was originally debating with (and several others) is that they make up their own mind what’s right and then go to scripture to prove to the rest of us that what they think is right. And those they teach/lead will suffer the consequences of their arrogance. I think the story of the woman caught in adultery is SO perfect here because AFTER all the stones had been dropped, and AFTER the crowd had dispersed, and AFTER He had dried her tears ... so to speak, He instructed her to “go and sin no more”! So my question for you is “Was I a bad mother because I told my children no? (Don’t play in the street, that’s where the cars play.)

Penelope: THANK YOU, my dear person! You are the only one (so far at least) that caught that and is my face red!! My purpose for posting was for assistance with “the mechanics”. I sure opened up a can of worms didn’t I?

Jessica: Of course He died for “those with a different sexual view” as well as all the rest of us. And all one has to do is accept that fact. Most of us – even if we’ve been raised surrounded with the Christian precepts and principles don’t come to acceptance of the “for you” part until we hit bottom and are looking for a way out or up. In which case, “I forgive you, forgive yourself, follow me, look up (to God) and out (to others) and give someone else a hand up” pretty well sums it up. John 14:15 and Luke 17:1 are pretty straightforward. Thanks for your comment.

Eric: Thanks for your comment. It only goes to make my point (elsewhere discussed) that the churches are presently doing a lousy job! You are right, the more one tries to explain the deeper hole one digs. There IS something called “spiritual growth” just like our physical growth. We sure as heck don’t expect a newborn baby to feed himself, get dressed and go to work or clean up after itself. If you indeed don’t feel like a sinner are you perfect? Or are you just unaware of what sin is?

I can’t answer all your questions but I can assure you, God didn’t kill your wife. (My condolences) Since Jesus is His son, and He died for you AND your wife, how could either of you be less important than He? Why do you CARE whether she will be male or female when (if, I might add) you meet on the other side of the veil of death? There is both male and female in each of us that come together to form the whole person. If you loved her as a person and not just a “convenient receptacle”, she will still be that same loveable person ... minus the clay cocoon. Since I have not yet experienced my own “crossing over” (there’s a million cliches for the experience of dieing) I cannot answer about what is there from personal experience. If I have faith so much as a mustard seed, John tells me in The Revelation that there is a city where the streets are paved with gold (It’s so plentiful, useless and unneeded.) And Jesus Himself told his disciples he was “going ahead to prepare a place”. One of my very first memories is of my grandmother standing at the kitchen sink peeling potatoes and whistling. Can you imagine the shock and impression made on me when during my teens I discovered (Long after she had “gone ahead”) there were words to the tune she whistled? “Will there be any stars in my crown?” As for Him being a politician! Yes! His message was truth. Sorry, I’m back to Faith-Fact-Feeling so I’ll move on. As to God is good. God IS good. There are great multitudes of people out there doing “good things” for all the wrong reasons! If I may, I’ll quote a poem. “I have only one life, T’will soon be past. But it’s only what’s done For Christ, Will last.” If you look really, really closely at all those “good people doing good things” you’ll begin to see a common motive. Acknowledged or not.

I have not Read “Loyalty” by Claudita. Can you give me a synopsis?

Robert Walker: Mr. Walker, I gather from your comment that you did not accept Jesus as your own “true savior”. He used you anyway to send your Sociology teacher digging into scripture for the answers she “only suspected” on her own. As to genocide, I stayed away from the Old Testament for a long time. I didn’t like it because it was so bloody and cruel. Life was cheap in those days. And sort of grimy as well. I don’t believe in “my religion” blindly, Sir. I am always open to “more light” or more information. I find, however, that if we do not learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it. The Old Testament is history. When you take things out of context, you miss a part of the whole picture. It also depends on age and ability to understand just how deeply one delves into that history. For example on the surface, in the story you refer to God told them to do something ... and they didn’t do it. And it came back to bite them (you know where) later. When you dig a little deeper you discover that these people had JUST been given a whole new way to live (check out Deuteronomy 23:12) and what they needed was to be kept apart for a season until they had had time to ... adjust to their new way of living. The very fact that you think Christianity is Exclusive only goes to my point that the church has done a really lousy job of late. Thanks for your comments.

Macbeth: If you found a place that gave you a new car with full tank of gas for the cost of that loaf of bread you just bought how fast would you tell your friends?

Ivordavies: Does that include the Moslem whose “convert or die” methods of spreading their faith is often fatal? Or who’s definition of god in their Koran is almost verbatim the definition of the devil in the bible? Or how about the “next time around you’ll do better” and “all is lost ‘whoa is me’ism” of the eastern religions? Then there’s Voodoo and magic and I’m sure many more.....

Elizabeth: Thanks for the comment. Re: “few points” I am only trying to make one point. MY Christian world excludes No one. Re: “world of guilt” is exactly why I am not Catholic. Re: so many ways: because Jesus Himself said, “I am the way”. If I came across as arrogant and self-righteous, I apologize. I was extremely angry and am now repentant (and still frustrated with those who W.I.L.L. not listen.) Arrogance, pride and rebellion are a horrible combination. Which, by the way, is why we HAVE the scriptures. To keep us from being lead astray by those who THINK they know, and disregard scripture as just a nice hi”story” book. My denomination removed the bible as the final authority about 20 years ago. We will continue to pay the price for that I’m afraid. I like the watch bit. But if you don’t mind I’ll stick with the potter and the clay creating me into a vessel. When empty able to receive His blessings and when full to bless others.

Stearns: Are you a parent? Whether you LIKE what a mother does or not, we “train” from long before potty training to long after cutting the apron strings. Of course homosexuality is not a teenage “melodrama” (interesting way to put that) but it IS a state of rebellion.

Related Items


The following comments are for "Well, well, well"
by Gramma

Just found your response:

Does that include the Moslem whose “convert or die” methods of spreading their faith is often fatal? Or who’s definition of god in their Koran is almost verbatim the definition of the devil in the bible? Or how about the “next time around you’ll do better” and “all is lost ‘whoa is me’ism” of the eastern religions? Then there’s Voodoo and magic and I’m sure many more.....

I am not sure as to the meaning of your question, I was talking about Christianity and not other religions! Your reply indicates that the only way to justify the stupidity found in many religions is by comparing them, not looking into the belief itself. The main question I raised is what gives Christians the God Damn right to claim that their way is the ONLY way to God. This is absurd, concieted and downright ridiculas!

I could have written similiar comments about absurdities or the faults of any religion, but your piece was on Christianity. I was not commenting on a piece from Islam, Voodoo or any other religion. If you are going to answer my comments please answer the real questions raised, don't hide your misgivings in an attack on others.

I write about spiritualism, I expect people to disagree with me, make logical, angry or agreeable comments. I want to know the reaction of my readers. I LEARN FROM IT! I do not justify my beliefs by attacking others.


( Posted by: ivordavies [Member] On: September 3, 2005 )

Just another point, I have lived alongside the misery of my neibours form Ireland, killing, bombing and maiming for years in the name of Christianity. In Ireland, Manchester, Warrington etc. entire town centres blown to pieces along with mothers, fathers and children....

Doesn't leave much to your argument:

Does that include the Moslem whose “convert or die” methods of spreading their faith is often fatal?

does it?


( Posted by: ivordavies [Member] On: September 3, 2005 )

Gramma PM

As this was an open discusion for all on the site to see, I am sharing the reply you made to me by PM with the others who have read your words.

I hope this helps you spread your faith:

2 reasons
why Christianity is unique and THE right way. 1)It's the ONLY one where there's help available. 2) Jesus SAID He was The way, THe truth and THE life. etc. None of the others MAKE that claim. Have you ever heard the story about the man who fell into a deep pit full of poisonous snakes? (Sort of on the same order as the good Samarian and "all those others" that passed by on the other side. It was told to illustrate the differences in (mainly) the eastern religions. ...and when Jesus comes along side and sees the delema of the man in the pit He jumps down into the pit, pushes up and out the man in the pit and of course gets bit and dies in the place of the man he pushes out. But He won't "jump in" unless He is asked.

'Jesus SAID He was The way, THe truth and THE life. etc. None of the others MAKE that claim.'

This is the very point I was making and I am not yet convinced, but would prefer communial lessons on site rather than private ones by PM.


( Posted by: ivordavies [Member] On: September 3, 2005 )


"Macbeth: If you found a place that gave you a new car with full tank of gas for the cost of that loaf of bread you just bought how fast would you tell your friends?"

I'm sorry I don't get it. I don't drive. I sold my Volvo since I became a minimalist, and I don't eat bread (really).


( Posted by: macbeth [Member] On: September 3, 2005 )

Folks, some people you can reason with and some you can't. I say we just let this sleeping dog lie.

( Posted by: Viper9 [Member] On: September 3, 2005 )

Thanks Eric,
Eric, thanks for commenting and filling in some of the details. My condolences. If I may comment further on your comment, “he never saved her either” I don’t really understand why some are saved and some are not except it’s back to that choice thing again. I’m not aware of anyone these days that has not heard the story of Christ. (BTW are you aware that we are about the same number of years from Jesus’ life now as Abraham was from Him?) So after the hearing, there’s only the accepting or the denying, faith or rejection. It’s up to each individual to make that choice. He provided the opportunity but if one doesn’t take advantage of that opportunity who’s loss it is? And I really don’t have a problem with those who choose not. What I have a problem with is those who distort the truth, and lead the children astray with their garbage. “Our fathers” who died in the war died for our freedom and our way of life not our salvation. I am grateful to all of them. I fear, however, that our children and grandchildren -- or anyone who has never spent any time outside our the U.S. simply hasn’t a clue to what life would be like without the Christian principles upon which this country was founded. Re: the “good” motive. No, not God. One of the things they are teaching in the public schools these days is “that feel good feeling” in an attempt to raise the kids’ self esteem. There are SO many words today that have been “bent”.

I took the time to go out and read Loyalty. It would seem another word that’s been all bent out of shape. I need to go back and spend some time before commenting but whew. I don’t know. Is it only a poem if it’s d ark and heavy these days?

( Posted by: Gramma [Member] On: September 4, 2005 )

Politics or Religion?
For Ivor, I apologize if I offended you by answering privately. Have they changed the rule about asking before one shares a private message publicly on this site? Sir, with all due respect, do you really think the “misery of your neighbors” is religious? I admit I’ve never quite understood because I’m not very well informed on that situation but I have a GREAT deal of difficulty believing it’s a Catholic/Protestant issue. I’m told it’s a political issue. Your insight would be of interest to me for my own understanding. As to the Moslem faith, yes, if a member of the family (like some of our young people do) questions, wanders away or converts to another faith, the family has a funeral (and I am aware of two specific cases where there is a “contract” out for the execution of the person that “left the faith”. It is to be carried out by a male member of the “faithful family” )

( Posted by: Gramma [Member] On: September 4, 2005 )

To Macbeth and Viper
Macbeth and Viper: To Macbeth: What is THE most valuable thing in this world to? To Viper 9: If these dogs were sleeping I would be GLAD to let them sleep. But when the dogs come at you with teeth bared do you just let them bite you or your children?

( Posted by: Gramma [Member] On: September 4, 2005 )

I must be for Hell then!

Oh, I see, if it's a war between Islam and Christians because we bombed their countries it's a religious war, but if it's a war beween Catholics and Protestants because they say their religious beliefs are incompatable and they just can't get on together, a bit like the Palestinians and Jews....then it's Politics.

My apologies to anyone on site, I do not support terrorism and murder and am not excusing anybody who is willing to spread hatred and destruction. But I do believe that religion has a lot to answer for, especially those who are not willing to tolerate differences and cannot accept that we are ALL God's family.(including people with sexual differences)

I'm still not convinced there is only one way to God's though, wonder where I am going?


( Posted by: ivordavies [Member] On: September 4, 2005 )

You sound so angry about the issue of Christ and God, Ivor. I haven't seen anything that Gramma has tried to ram down yours or anyone elses throat here. She is expressing faith and an opinion. I hope that in your insides you are not advocating the cessation of her freedom to speak in a clear and open manner. My only question other that that is; do you think that Jesus has anything to answer for? Is not Him dying enough for you.


( Posted by: williamhill [Member] On: September 4, 2005 )


All my responses have been to responses from gramma, who started this seperate thread and PM'd me with her responses. I am not angry, just expressing an opinion as to why someone should see fit to attack other religions in response to an article on Christianity!

It is noticable, that I am now being accused of anger, this of course is a normal response when any logical explanation cannot be given to the questions raised. I find your comments about Jesus distastful and uncalled for, as I have also found the attack on other religions in order to to avoid the questions raised.

I am a Christian, I do not however feel that I have the only way to God. This was the point I raised. If it cannot be answerd I do not feel that accusations of anger are going to help in any way.


( Posted by: ivordavies [Member] On: September 5, 2005 )

Ivor, answered
Well,Ivor, I said you sounded angry,(hard to hear anger for sure in the written word)and I am somewhat surprised in your claim of Christianity, as I have not seen such a claim in many of your comments. I claim to be a Christian too, not a very good one by any number of measures. I prefer to be called a Believer, not a knower. However, if you are going to make the claim to be a Christian (and not another religion), your only precept and tenet of belief and faith rests upon a Bible. You can say that man wrote it,(that's obvious), that it has been translated many times,(it has) And that there are many denominations and interpretations of it(there are), and every one of us thinks or knows he is right(we do)(I do), but in the end,it all comes down to believing something we cannot see, something we cannot hear, or taste or touch. Some people even say it comes down to something we feel. (I do not subscribe to feeling.) And I have to tell you Ivor, if you are going to make the claim of being a Christian, then the only support you have for your claim is that Bible. It is as simple as that. I do not claim to be a scholar of the Bible. I am a reader and a student of it. I believe every word of it, for to discount one word of it cheapens and counterfeits my faith in it. Some folks would call that being naive or blind faith. Some would even call it ignorance. I've been accused of that before right here on this site on other threads. I've been accused of lots of other things too. But I've never been accused of being the Son of God. I've never made the claim of being the Son of God. That mantle belongs to Jesus, and he died for it. I don't go around quoting much scripture here, this is a poetry website(among other things) but I loosely quote a few, among them,*Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost.* *No man can come to the Father but by Him.* *Come unto me and I will give you rest.* *Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.*

By making the claim,Ivor, you took on the mantle of scripture, all of it. Of this you must be aware. There is no pick and choose. There is no going back to what you were before. And there are so many other wonderful things that happens to you when you "become" a Christian. There are Promises Christ made, and promises to keep. I claim every one of them.

I cannot tell you what will happen to people who do not "believe". I ain't the Judge. But if you dig around a little in the scripture, you will get a pretty good idea of what will happen to them. That is why we--I spread my "faith" It is the true reason why Christians go to every remote corner of the world, at great peril to themselves, to spread the Gospel. It's because we love and ,yes, Fear God. We know that most do not want to hear it. It is a commandment. So we do.

It is not logical for you to be a Christian, and believe there are other ways to get to *Heaven*
The very idea that you claim to be a Christian precludes you from that belief. Just like saying that it is ok to be a homosexual. The scripture is explicitly against it. Does that mean there are no Christian homosexuals? No. It means that they are not in Gods' will, just like me who is a glutton, a coveter, a backslider. It doesn't mean that we will go to Hell for our paid for and accepted sins. Jesus took a lot on when He saved me. I can live with that if He can. (He does.)

I'm glad that you are a Christian,


( Posted by: williamhill [Member] On: September 5, 2005 )

"By making the claim,Ivor, you took on the mantle of scripture, all of it."

I'll decide what I took on, I lead my life based on personal resoponsibility.

I tend to use my own mind to decide which path to follow. May I say again dtate I am a Christian, by your definition there should be only one type of Christians not many......

A belief in Jesus Christ having lived is all I need to model my life, I do not think this is the only way, but at the moment I do not intend to lead my life according to the Gospel according to Williamhill!


( Posted by: ivordavies [Member] On: September 5, 2005 )

Viper was right.


( Posted by: williamhill [Member] On: September 5, 2005 )

He certainly was!


( Posted by: ivordavies [Member] On: September 5, 2005 )

Gramma. et al

Just came upon this .To 'cut to the chase' please could you clarify how " each time the church falls under persecution it emerges stronger and better aligned with The Truth than it was before? " in the following specific instances I had mentionned:

- Post Emperor Julian the Apostate
- After the Crusades , and the elimination of the Templars and Cathars...
- After the Spanish Inquisition -which took cruelty to 'sublime' heights.

I do most definitely agree that love certainly does not mean 'just say yes ' all the time. However most ,in this day and age, seem to have given this principle the go-by - which probably accounts for things having come to a sorry pass currently.

Perhaps if you broadened your perspective taking in what lies beyond the 'pale' -ie. the shores of the US - you might realise that Christianity -albeit substantially different -has been alive and kicking for over 2000 years in parts of the world like Egypt, Ethiopia - and believe it or not- along the South West Coast of what is now India.

These have far more in common with the Eastern Orthodox Churches - ie Russian , Greek , Armenian and Syrian . Very deep and very intense mysticism permates their rituals and their way of life.

( Posted by: RJKT [Member] On: September 6, 2005 )

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