Lit.Org - a community for readers and writers Advanced Search

Average Rating

(1 votes)

RatingRated by

You must login to vote

To the dear ones in my former homosexuality and the church discussion group:

It is with sadness I resign from this group. My time is not my own these days and I find it impossible to keep up at this point. To those who agree that this step must not be taken, please stand firm ... fight the good fight ... run the good race, etc. Please know that each morning as I meet with my (indeed "The") Boss I will be praying for all of you and those who have lead you to these errant conclusions. It would seem that no matter which part of scripture I choose to read each morning, it only serves to reinforce from every conceivable angle that the church must not take this step. This group has served to strengthen my resolve to serve and my determination to fight this cancer within the body. I have tried reading familiar passages in all the translations available to me with the purposeful intent of proving this new idea appropriate. It is not. And if I lay reason and my own personal experiences next to scriptures -- as you yourselves have put forth as the standard, it is impossible to even make it OK let alone bless it!
You have been given choice and taken license
You have faced discernment and called it judgment
You have already achieved compromise and mistaken it for permission
You have met with patience and considered it approval
You have mistaken discipline for prejudic
You have considered self-discipline a form of legalism
You have indulged in all kinds of gluttony and renamed it grace
You have mistaken lust for God's Love (there is no two ways about this and it's the worst abomination of all!)
You have mistaken feelings for fact and innuendo for truth
You have blackened the eye of Christ all over again with your "I can't help it" hopelessness

We, as a church body have taken our lessons from the secular humanistic community instead of God's word. We have gotten caught up in the numbers and dollars games to measure our success. We have tried to be everything to everybody (standing for nothing) instead of spreading the good news of hope and gathering together believers old and new who would spur one another on toward love and good deeds. We've stopped running the good race and gotten bogged down contemplating our own shoelaces and sucking our thumbs while the public schools usurp our place in community. And since God also said "And if anyone causes one of the little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck" we therefore, historically, have more often believed it was better to err on the side of caution than not ... until now.

There are ways that seem right to mankind but only lead to death. Trust in the Lord with all your heart. Never rely on what you think you know. Remember the Lord in EVERYTHING you do and He will show you the right way. Watch out for false prophets and teachers. They come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruits you will recognize them. If you continue in God's word you will become Christ's disciple THEN you will know the Truth and that Truth will set you free (from your bondage of sin ... and enable you to become the bondservant of Jesus the Christ) For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

I urge you, brothers and sisters in Christ, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. (And whoa to those of us who have already not taught the present-day young what is indeed right in God's eyes and what is not!) Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. And then He tells us to "go and sin no more!" If we claim we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar and His work has no place in our lives.

I haven't heard one word in this discussion about the Holy Spirit! I find it oddly interesting that the more education one partakes of, the less one considers the spiritual part of the faith important and becomes more intent on the business part of things. We profess to believe in the Holy Spirit ... but not in ghosts of course, and no matter how real evil is in this world speaking of the devil personified is totally archaic and backwoods superstition. I have also not heard word one about "consider the cost before you start to build." If you keep insisting that God created you this way you do two things. 1) You redefine God as the same old type of trickster and "human anguisher" that the Greek and Roman gods were. (And, by the way, the same definition of god that is in the Koran) Just playing with men and enjoying their misery because they were bored and had nothing better to do. I've been told that was one of the reasons that Judaism was such a radical faith. They professed that their God was a God of Love. Not mean and vicious and pranksterish. And 2) you sling “hopelessness” in the face of every believer on the planet despite the fact that Hope is one of the very cornerstones of Christianity! I suppose, if you REALLY want to believe that you truly have no choice but to be a homosexual person, that this is the cross you just have to bear. If it were any other handicap or shortcoming you'd figure out how to live with it, around it, and/or through it. Suppose that you are missing the opportunity to "suffer for the faith" and become a martyr as Paul and so many other named and nameless did. Are you willing to give up everything for Christ ...... except your sexuality??? In THIS grand and glorious country what other meaningful sacrifice would there presently be? Don't TELL me it's a broken and CONTRITE heart! It is not against the law to be a Christian (yet). We don't live any differently than the rest of the nation so what IS there to draw non-believers to faith. Honesty? Loyalty? Good works? Standards? Consider the parts of Acts that report people flocking to "the new way" by the hundreds!

Being a Christian is a total and complete way of life so let me make this suggestion: Close your concordance, your Greek and Hebrew dictionary, your lexicon, your catechism, the lectionary and all the other reference books for just one day (24 hours) no TV and no radio, DVD etc. BE ALONE AND IN SILENCE. Retreat into your personal relationship with .... hello? Is anybody there? Also close your eyes right now. Slide forward on your chair and place your knees on the floor. And now comes the really tough part. Bend your neck forward and bow your head, your heart and your mind, your sole and your spirit to Christ your King. This is not the church now, this is YOU. Since you are our spiritual leaders - that's what we PAY you to be anyway, you should be spending more time in scripture, prayer and service than the rest of us anyway. (To show us how ... lead the way!) Yes, I know you need training for counseling and leadership etc but not to the exclusion of the principles and precepts of Christianity taught in scripture. How many of you, if I asked you to put your faith in one sentence could do it? (Is the pain starting in your knees yet? Funny how when you're not used to being there either spiritually or physically that discoimfort begins pretty quickly ... and your next thought will be "I can't DO this any longer". There's that big old capitol "I" again)

There are very few but there ARE several references to how one treats a believer differently than a non-believer and believe it or not I found a couple that help us to determine WHO is a believer and who is not. There are also a couple of references to how so many of us will be fooled in the last days and that some believers are – indeed will be - more spiritually mature than others and what we might do about that. And that some of us just plain won't make it. How can you possibly teach others when you are still quibbling over the basics? Your jobs, by the way, is to work yourselves OUT of jobs so to speak. That is to teach the basics – and then to teach us how to feed ourselves. Whoever wrote Hebrews lays out a pretty good case for evaluating our spiritual growth by the choices we make. How about 1) Teaching others rather than just being taught. 2) Developing depth of understanding rather than struggling with the basics. 3) Self-evaluation rather than self-criticism. 4) Seeking unity rather than disunity. 5) Desiring spiritual challenges rather than desiring entertainment. 6) Careful study and observation rather than opinions and half-hearted efforts. 7) Active faith rather than cautious apathy and doubt. 7) Feelings and experiences evaluated in the light of God's Word rather than experiences evaluated according to feelings!

So my suggestion is to follow Luther's example. If you're so sure about this, get out of here and set up your own church just as those did who think we should worship on Saturday instead of Sunday, and those who believe we should have communion every Sunday instead of once a year or once in a lifetime and whether you should serve grape juice or wine, bread or fish food (wafers!) We've lost track of just why there ARE different denominations and your brand of unity would put us all back in the Catholic camp selling indulgences and all. Like cells growing and dividing, the Catholic Church did not die when those who disagreed "came out" and the Lutheran church will not collapse when you leave. The last time I checked people join churches for different reasons at different stages in their lives. But the most common one is community. And if you can find one that agrees with what you (already) believe so much the better. This is a far cry from the origins of "church." I always got a kick out of watching my kids "discover" that other moms at church had the same standards and convictions that I did (not so with the public schools even back then!) So all of you who truly believe this is the right way band together and begin a new denomination. There ARE those who believe that I am not saved because I do not speak in tongues ..... which is why I do not choose to attend that church!

OK, I'm done now. Thanks to those of you who stuck with me through all this. I guess I got a little scared when I read Leviticus 18:24-30. This issue WILL cost us this country so as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord and follow His lead NOT because we must or are under obligation but because we CHOOSE to. He created us and knows what's best for us. He is the potter ... we are merely clay. As a parent you train up a child. Then you live by faith that after the teenage meltdown they will return to the right way. You HAVE to choose ... He won't MAKE you do it. You can reason all you want but it won't change any of the facts. I've watched this problem ruin too many lives and families to consider it a valid "alternative".

Related Items


The following comments are for "ENOUGH ALREADY!"
by Gramma

A stirring, moving, rousing, tribute to the power of Christian delusion. God bless you in your embrace of bigotry. May ignorance truly be bliss.


( Posted by: Viper9 [Member] On: August 19, 2005 )

I wouldn't even know where to begin, so I will ask for you the same as I ask for myself, may God help you find HIS truth.

In the name of real love,

( Posted by: nae411 [Member] On: August 19, 2005 )

Viper9 and others
Just skimmed through this very interesting rant.Viper'a take on it of course has been done with his inimitable elan ..

Since its inception ,horrendous atrocities have been committed in the name of Christ...the Crusades,the destruction of the Templars and the Cathars , the absolutely unspeakable horrors of the Inquisition ...all the way to the recent Holocaust - that was perpetrated by essentially Christian countries. One could even make a valid case attributing Hiroshima and Nagasaki -and all the subsequent wars to a substantially Christian West.

Does this or does this not fly in the face of each and every tenet laid down in the Bible -enjoining men among many other things to Love one another...

Were one to read Gore Vidal's little known masterpice "Julian' one would begin to get a feeling of the extent to which the early Church was riven by deep dissension - and realise how close he had come to administering the coup de grace on the Church. Perhaps with the benefit of hindsight it might not have been such a bad thing after all , had he managed to pull it off.

( Posted by: RJKT [Member] On: August 20, 2005 )

Taking up from where I'd left off -the Church in South India ,established by St. Thomas ,seems to have been an exception to this phenomenon -with none of the wallowing -and the glorying -in violence that characterised ,nay epitomised ,the Western Churches.

But then ,perhaps they were waiting for the white devils to land on their shores and unleash the violence that had become second nature to them. This came to pass 1500 years later.

( Posted by: RJKT [Member] On: August 20, 2005 )

God gave us our sexuality. If you believe in him then surely you believe that? Surely love is better than hate? Isn't homosexual love just as valid as hetereosexual love - as long as it is love? I hope you find the truth eventually, because I'm sorry to say, at the moment you seem very prejudiced. Respect for other beliefs should be your watchword. The Christian God might exist, he might not. Those that believe he does have that right. Those that believe in other gods or no gods at all also have that right.

Take care

( Posted by: ogg [Member] On: August 20, 2005 )

Put down your stones
Romans 3: 21-28 (NKJ)

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

* * * * *

I have no idea if homosexuality is specifically a *worse* sin than lying, cheating, stealing, pride, covetousness, calling people "stupid," giving short shrift, badmouthing carnival barkers or hitting your kids. I'm not in charge of the laws of God. And guess what? Since Christ came, the laws aren't what matters: "...there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

We fixate on "sins," because we love to keep score. We are like squirrels, counting our horde of "good deed" nuts, and pointing out others' little piles of "bad deed" nuts.

To which I say, "Feh." Why?

Because we are ALL "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith."

All of us are "sinners." Period. End of story. To point at one group, based on one set of behaviors and say, "This group is deserving of special attention, of special 'sin patrol' knocking-around" is prideful. Adultery is a sin, too. And a bad one. But what did Christ tell the people in the temple court to do with their stones?

Put them down. Why? Because if anyone but Christ is holding a stone, guess who's next in line for a rock upside the head?

I'm not saying I know if homosexuality is always good or bad. It's a tough call. But I do know that I'm bone tired of anyone calling themselves a Christian doing anything other than being a loving sister or brother to another human being about the issue. I've got my own problems and my own sins, like any homosexual -- which is just a synonym for sinner, which is what we all are, Gramma -- and what I need from you is prayer.

If what I'm doing is a sin, and I'm in prayer about it, and living in the Word and the Spirit, I'll trust Christ to help me through. That's the deal, right? I don't need a priest or a Bishop or a Pope or Dogma or a Oiuja board.

You will be much more effective in helping spread the Word if you put down your stones and pick up your light.

( Posted by: andyhavens [Member] On: August 20, 2005 )

Jeannie, I know what you meant to say at the end and I totally believe God is doing a mighty work in your life but to say God is a Killer might be confusing to the nonbelievers...His judgment is just would be better wording...this is not a rebuke only helping in love....Kacee

( Posted by: Nitz Kitty [Member] On: August 23, 2005 )

No clue about Gramma, and I'm sorry about your wife Eric. I live in Alabama. The buckle of the Bible belt. "Theological discussions" here cannot take place unless folks quote the book. It occurred to me that these folks can't or won't draw their own conclusions, they just accept. I've since stopped talking to them. My old Sociology teacher told us that homosexuality is an "abomination" in the eyes of God. She then went on and on about the love of Jesus, and the light that shines when one accepts Jesus Christ as one's own true savior. Now... I went to Catholic school, so the Jesus I learned about may have differed than this one, so I asked her to quote the verse. She couldn't (of course), and the following week she came in with a list of them. No doubt she had consulted with her pastor. She handed me the little yellow lined sticky note with a sick grin. "Here's that info you wanted Rob." The rest of the class I was bombarded with questions as to my faith, or apparent lack thereof. I went home and looked them up and sure as Billy-b-frigged there it was in the OT. "Abomination."
I then did a little note writing of my own. Whilst at the "bombing class" I told them that I could never subscribe to a faith that believed in genocide, especially in the name of God. They dismissed me as a tree-hugging hippie, that was also non-informed. How could this Damn Yankee know more about our own book? They asked themselves. I'm sure they thought me pompous and arrogant.
The next class we had, I gave her the sticky note, and told her: "This is why I don't and won't blindly believe in YOUR religion." The topic came up in class again, and I reiterated my previous point. In Leviticus (the book of the Hebrew Wisemen) Moses killed the men, women, and boys, of numerous tribes, and kept the young girls as slaves. I don't think they were spared to beat the rugs in their tents, needless to say. I pointed it out in class, and no one believed me, anticipating this, I brought my own book. They looked up my passages, and sure as Billy-b-Frigged, I was right. The point of my relating this story is simply this: "Religion" is or should be, simply the PERSONAL search for truth. Whether one uses the teachings of Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, Lao Tzu, or me. If it works for you, use it. If it doesn't drop it, and find one that does. Mankind has this huge hole in their psyche. Some fill it with science, feeding their dreams with visions of Quasars, Black Holes, and String theories. Others picture virgins, an old bearded man, a great mother, or nothing at all. Religion is simply a guidebook to something that is very difficult for even the highest of educated minds to comprehend. As is most other forms of information. Whatever moves you, and clues you in to this thing that IS in everyone of us, yes even Hitler, Pol Pot, and Amin as it is Lennon, Ghandi, and Einstein. As long as it's not exclusive use it. Christianity has become perverted to me. It seeks to exclude people, when in all reality it was meant to unite, just like every other religion. So seek your own truth Gramma, that's what I say, anyway.

( Posted by: robert walker [Member] On: August 26, 2005 )

i thought I'd come read what you wrote about me
thats right I'm him
Jesus Hector Christ
but I am DEAD
and no crown of thorns ever touched my head
Yes I did have 12 friends.
The Apostles were junkies.
I was a big drugdealer in Bethlehem
and they bought from me.
Yes I died, but not for all your sins.
I died cause I am a bad carpenter,
and fucked up when I was hammerin.
I was a bum of a son.
I didn’t herd the sheep I fucked em.
and that water into wine thingy…..
If I could do that the Pacific Ocean
would be a full bodied burgundy.
And Yeah, I’d walk across it everyday…
Straight into The Bay Of Chardonnay
right into Heaven…
and oh by the way….for writing this….
I am already forgiven.
Goodbye from Jesus Hector Christ,
Please no more prayers,
have a nice life…----ahem

since you can give your opinion -I thoughht I'd give mine and only take up a 1/3 of the space-you have some pretty strong feelings regyuarding the Jesus Dude(lol) amazing-without any proof of something-and I mean concrete proof and hey it's nice to hasve faith it cant hurt butif I was a thinking man and someone told me Darwins Theory...well i just might believe it over mine even--but yours is just a shame--what do you care if someone is gay for anyway-taking your women? no--kicking your ass?-I doubt it--I mean what threat do they oposse to you? are you afraid of a std cause they are sneaking into your bed late night and slipping it to ya? NO so I dont know lighten up and turn the cheek so to speak/to each their own ya know....If I were God i would make the whole world gay!! lol don't take this wrong I am just having some fun with ya

( Posted by: lamemansterms [Member] On: August 26, 2005 )

spreading dogma

If Christians were so secure about their own beliefs, why do they feel the necessity to spread their dogma everywhere?

Live And Let Live.


( Posted by: macbeth [Member] On: August 26, 2005 )

I've found my God, in all I do,
So may I come and preach to you.
The God I serve just has no name,
But aren't they meant to be the same.

Now most religions worship God,
The one who holds the final rod.
The name can change, but not the post.
He's still the only Holy Gost.

In most religions prophets fell,
To us on earth, their tale to tell.
But only one claims Christ is King
And heaven is only for their thing.

The one and only way they say,
God's son, not prophet showed the way!
A better class of folk we host,
With Father son AND Holy Ghost.

Now come on people all get real,
The universal power then feel,
It matter not just how you pray,
Or even if your day is gay.

My brother said it, worship GOOD
And try to live the life you should.
Responsible for all we do.
I'll share my God with ALL of you.

( Posted by: ivordavies [Member] On: August 27, 2005 )

As Nietzsche wrote, "There was only one true Christian, and he died on the cross". All others are Paul's perversions.

( Posted by: Viper9 [Member] On: August 27, 2005 )

Do you mind!!?
Only kidding. Just wanted to say this; despite the controversial nature of this posting, it's good to see people keeping their comments civil and intelligent, not bigoted and downright rude.
Take care
Paul (the Ogg, not the saint)

( Posted by: ogg [Member] On: August 27, 2005 )

In response to MacBeth's question: Why we Christians spread the Word
MacBeth asked:

"If Christians were so secure about their own beliefs, why do they feel the necessity to spread their dogma everywhere? Live And Let Live."

It's a good question. You don't have people who really like the taste of chocolate running around yelling, "Eat chocolate, you butterscotch loving freaks!" and starting pogroms and inquisitions and crusades where you are forced to eat M&Ms or burn at the stake (insert bad joke about "melts in your mouth...").

Even on subjects where people feel very strongly -- issues of politics, emotions, business, etc. -- you rarely have attempts at "conversion." We often see people jumping up and down and claiming to be right on various subjects... but, again, not trying to get lots of other people to "believe."

Why, then, do we Christians feel the need to spread our faith?

As in many issues involving religion, it's a complicated question. But I think there are two basic answers, depending on how/why the person/organization doing the conversion is/are Christian themselves.

1. If the preaching/conversion activity is being carried on by someone who is a Christian out of a basic sense of fear and/or obligation, I believe that much of the pressure they put on others will come, essentially, out of a desire for power. There is a great deal of (for lack of a better term) "medieval" Christian dogma left in the world. This is basically the idea that if you ain't a Christian, you'll burn in hell. Do good or fry forever in a living lake of fire, tortured by the minions of Satan, blah, blah, blah. Thank you, Dante Alighieri, for taking the lyrical works of Greek poets, combining them with some Old Testament fun and Syrian mythology, and saddling the world with more guilt and bogus theology than any other single git in history. Feh.

So... if you are doing something because you are afraid, it is helpful to have lots of people on your side. It's a comfort. It's bolstering. From a psychological standpoint, it helps you to feel as if you've made the right decision.

It's also a mess. Because while fear is a very good motivator, it's also only really good for short-term stuff; running away from tigers, keeping you from cheating on tests, etc. Living an entire life based on a theology of fear is, frankly, harmful in the extreme. That's why so many really smart people who don't have reasonable, rational Christian friends have such a hard time with "mainstream" (especially "old school") Christianity -- it seems to lack a certain rationality in terms of both long-term sensibility, and its adherents can't live up to the behavioral norms required by a fear-based system of rules over the long haul. Nobody can. Fear is not a good life-guide.

People who base their faith on fear also want other people on board with them because they will then be less of a threat to a belief system that may not be entirely logical. That is, if you can get people to stop making logical arguments -- join "your side," "the right side" -- then you'll have less of a chance of being contradicted. And fear based faith fears contradiction almost more than anything else.

#2. If the preaching/conversion activity is being done by someone who has found Christianity to be a profound source of strength, love, wisdom, peace, healing and joy... we preach in order to share the good stuff. That is, I hope, where all my messages on the subject come from. I'm not a Christian because I fear the consequences of NOT being one; I am a Christian because following Christ gives me peace, makes me more loving, grants me mercy and grace, and in general improves the quality of my life and spirit.

I have a very good, very smart friend who always assumed that you had to have had some kind of emotional "spiritual" experience in order to be a spiritual Christian. Nope. I told him that my faith is based primarily -- I'd say 90%+ -- on logic and reason. As is most stuff in my life. I do get an emotional benefit from my fait (I get benefits in all areas of my life), but the CAUSES of my faith are chiefly mental; ie, I've thought about them, not felt them. Which is another argument AGAINST fear-based Christianity; because fear -- especially life-ling fear -- is not a rational reason to do anything for a long, long time. And so (in my mind, anyways) any argument that relies primarily on fear is going to often be one that tries to ride your emotions. I don't like it when people do that. I don't do that in my conversations about religion. I think it is entirely irrational to live a life based on fear and "hell avoidance." I do think, though, that it is entirely rational to live a life based on a spirtuality that provides all the benefits I get out of my relationship with Christ and His Word.

Does that help? I wouldn't dream of trying to "convince" anyone that my favorite flavor of pudding (butterscotch) is "better" or "right-er" than their favorite flavor. I don't preach pudding. But I get so much joy and peace from my faith that I can't help but want the people I care about to know more about it. I try not to be pushy... but I also try not to be ashamed about it. That's a hard balance, especially when so many non-Christians are going to throw me in a big pile with lots of other types of religious folks, many of whom don't share my beliefs, but only a few national holidays.

Hope that helps.

- A

( Posted by: andyhavens [Member] On: August 28, 2005 )

Re: Any's Christianity

Thanks for the reply, however you did not need to give me a long-winded convincing explanation about the different types of Christian faiths such as the "logical" vs. the "medieval" and the "fear" based types. Perhaps my comment should have been a statement rather than a question. Your 955 word clarification on the subject proves my point (and to debate it any more would verify it further). I am just one person with one opinoin.



( Posted by: macbeth [Member] On: August 29, 2005 )

Macbeth's Question Answered
The short answer is; because we are commanded to.
"Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature." We are also cautioned "not to cast our pearls before swine."

Take care,


( Posted by: williamhill [Member] On: August 29, 2005 )

Inconvenient for some
Amen Williamhill;
I liked your answers. There is no better answer than that.

Matthew 7:6
Mark 6:11
Philippians 3:2
II Thessalonians 2:10
Hebrews 6:6
Revelations 22:15

( Posted by: JEANNIE45 [Member] On: August 29, 2005 )

Pig Latin,Eric
Pigs are smart creatures, smarter than a few people, I reckon. When Jesus cast a passel of Demons from a possessed man, they ran right to the pigs and possessed them. I think the pigs committed suicide. (I haven't read the Good Book much in a while.) I can't answer for Andy, wouldn't presume to, but, you are applying human reason to things that are above your pay grade. In other words, humans think with a human,carnal mind, God thinks with, well, a Godly mind. He says his ways are far above our ways. I tend to believe that for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which are miracles, those things that are beyond reason. Man cannot explain everything and will not live long enough to satisfy his questions about life or the meaning thereof. Faith and trust are good things to have when you've beat your head against the metaphorical wall. I cannot explain God's mind to you,I'm sorry that I can't, I'm a human just like you.
It is not my intent to offend.


( Posted by: williamhill [Member] On: August 29, 2005 )

I suppose . . .
that what Jeannie and Willy are saying is that the only answer they need is "Because I told you so".

Ah yes . . .

( Posted by: Viper9 [Member] On: August 29, 2005 )

Logical God; reply to Fairplay
Eric --

[Aside to MacBeth -- You asked a question, I answered it as honestly and completely as I could, as I thought you wanted an answer, and as it was a good question. Didn't mean to be long-winded; just thorough.]

[Aside to williamhill -- pearls? flatterer...]

Most of my beliefs about God and Christ seem logical to me, rather than emotion or faith based.

I look, first, at a universe of unbelievable complexity, and find, to use Occam's Razor, that it simply seems more simple to assume a Prime Mover. Is it possible that a universe as wonderful and varried, full of beauty, terror, good and evil, beauty and horror as ours was fashioned from randomness? Certainly. Is it probable? It doesn't strike me as such. There seems to me to be both too much order, and too much chaos -- but balanced. That's just way too weird to have happened accidentally.

I also look at the particular circumstance of humans. We have become something "more" than animals. While I believe most devoutly in the evolution of the physical, mental and social aspects of animals and man... we have developed "stuff" that no other beasts have; music, art, romantic love, systems of justice and mercy, religions, etc. Morality. We see in every other system on the planet, evidence of our own physical evolution. We see evidence of our intelligence in apes, dogs, fish... even bugs. We see evidence of our social evolution in various animal groups. We see evidence of emotional evolution in animal species. But in no other animal do we see traces of morality.

Where did this come from, our sense of morality, if it did not evolve? I say it came from an outside force. I call that force "God." Again, it could have sprung up randomly. Yes, that is possible. But it does not seem to me to be logical or probable.

The historical character of Christ, to move on, is pretty well documented. More so than many other folks we believe in without much evidence. Some people believe he was a good man and a teacher, but not the Son of God or the Messiah. Problem with that is, he'd have to have been totally insane to claim to be the Son of God, and it's hard to be a great teacher and also bug-nuts. Again, not impossible... just hard. We don't have much evidence of other great moral teachers also being that schitzophrenic. Folks who think they are God, the messiah, Son of God, etc., tend to be so unstable that their level of teaching and spiritual insight is on par with that of a ruttebega.

Add to that the evidence that the early Christians, the disciples, eleven of whom died rather than renounce their belief in Christ as the Messiah. It is certainly credible that someone would die for someone they *believed* to be the Mesiah, but didn't know for sure about. In the case of Christ, however, the disciples would have known him to be a fraud, had he not done the things he claimed. If so, would 11 of 12 have been so eager to die for the memory of a liar or madman? Again... possible, but not convincing.

All of this is, in the end, only as convincing as any other philosophical argument or historical conjecture... if the place it leads you to is not helpful. And this is where Christianity makes the most sense to me, both in my head and, finally, in my heart. The lessons of Christ, in the Gospels, are, I believe, some of the most profound and helpful truths ever written. They are some of the only ways that we can live together without rancor, turn hateful lives into loving ones, heal brokenness, and gain joy where only sorrow was before. Christ is the Word of God, and that Word can truly do magic; 2 + 2 can = 5. Or goldfish. Or Disney World. Or forgiveness.

Mercy and grace are at the heart of that magic. The idea that we will all be better off if we don't expect "an eye for an eye," but are willing to trade blessings for hate. That we should pray for our enemies and bless those that curse us. In a world where we will always argue over who gets the biggest slice of cake... the only way to finally get out of that cycle is to just say, "Brother... take the whole cake. I like watching you eat."

I truly believe that mercy and grace "trickle up." That, when practiced at a personal, business and political level, they return benefits to the givers on unimaginable levels. That was the whole point of Christ dying for us; to show that by giving up everything, so much more can be earned for all. It was both an example of mercy and the price of grace.

When you add up the merits of Christ's teachings and the reasonableness (in my mind, anyway) of the arguments for a belief in God, you get a logical system that also (happily) provides lots of other benefits. Because the mercy and grace I pray to be a part of come back to me. I experience them both as a recipient, and as a conduit. At least I try. When, for example, I'm in the middle of a hard/bad situation at work, I pray that God will help me find a way to turn it into something that will benefit everyone involved. That's a prayer for mercy; that his grace will cover us all.

It works for me, anyways. And it seems to make sense. No "holy rolling" necessary. No jumping and jiving. No sweating and Bible banging. I read the Bible to get more familiar with what, I hope, Christ would suggest I do in order to be more in line with how He would do things. Which will make it easier for me to experience said grace/mercy. Again, it's not such an emotional thing for me. It just makes sense.

I hope that helps. Sorry if it was long winded. It's the only wind I've got.

( Posted by: andyhavens [Member] On: August 29, 2005 )

Ah, yes, Viper
You are a philosopher of sorts, I guess, Viper. You've at least published a book on the subject. So I guess that would qualify you as more intelligent than some,(me) and you would be more readily able to answer questions that have plagued others such as yourself, such as, Plato, Aristotle,Pliny,Socrates,Newton,Einstein,Hawking,etc. etc. etc. You get the picture. I know that places you in some pretty rarified air,But I think your ego might be able to stay intact. The one thing those other fellows have experienced that you haven't is death. Just in case they are a little outdated, pick your own philosopher/scientist/enlightener. and use them instead. They are dead, and so will you be someday.(and so will I.) Out of all the combined human wisdom and intelligence combined in all the minds of this world, not a single soul has figured out how not to die. Not a one has come back to say where your *essence* goes when you die. I'll tell you what, "because I told you so" sounds pretty darn good to me. Ignorance or not.

You ain't got nuthin' better to go on.

Get on board or get left behind.

Best of doubting luck to you,


( Posted by: williamhill [Member] On: August 29, 2005 )

Aw shucks
You're so sweet, Willy!

( Posted by: Viper9 [Member] On: August 29, 2005 )

haven't finished comments yet - You got blood moving!
My goodness! I got through about 1/3 of the comments and had to come and comment to you before I had other influences...
You make a few good points, but, sadly, very few.
Your Christian world excludes so many. (I was raised Catholic- a world of guilt onto itself)

What's up with the self-righteous stuff, darlin?
Why is Jesus beter than his dad? (Remember, I'm, Christian)

I just don't get why any of the ways to God are wrong. Believe in Jesus, but even He said "It is the father"...

I agree that it's odd for the watch to recognise the watch maker. But baby, you're a watch,

Peace and blessings-

( Posted by: emaks [Member] On: August 30, 2005 )

A minor aside...
I just have a minor quibble...actually I have a lot of quibbles with this particular topic, but I haven't got all day, so I'll just go with this one:

"As a parent you train up a child. Then you live by faith that after the teenage meltdown they will return to the right way. You HAVE to choose ... He won't MAKE you do it."

You don't 'train' a child, you raise a child. You're not molding a person using tricks and treats.
And homosexuality isn't teenage melodrama.

( Posted by: Stearns [Member] On: August 30, 2005 )

Add Your Comment

You Must be a member to post comments and ratings. If you are NOT already a member, signup now it only takes a few seconds!

All Fields are required

Commenting Guidelines:
  • All comments must be about the writing. Non-related comments will be deleted.
  • Flaming, derogatory or messages attacking other members well be deleted.
  • Adult/Sexual comments or messages will be deleted.
  • All subjects MUST be PG. No cursing in subjects.
  • All comments must follow the sites posting guidelines.
The purpose of commenting on Lit.Org is to help writers improve their writing. Please post constructive feedback to help the author improve their work.