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So now the Federal Congress is debating whether or not they should write a law that bans gay marriage. I am certain that everyone has an opinion on this issue. Mine? I don’t see how the Federal Government can get involved, nor do I see why there is a debate at all. Then again, we haven’t had a President stomp on civil liberties like Bush has since Lincoln. Allow me to develop this point by looking at a couple of the documents we all hold so dearly. The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.
“We hold these truths to be self evident. That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”
Do we really mean that? Are all men created equal? I’d like to think so. Look above and read it carefully. It doesn’t read that some men are created equal, and not all of these “truths” are enumerated in the Declaration or the Constitution. Those that aren’t are reserved to the States or to the People. This country is supposedly one that does not tolerate oppression of any kind, but we all know better. There is no mention that if you are gay not only are you not allowed to enjoy the liberties everyone else does, you’re going straight to hell. This essay or Declaration reeks of John Locke. His was the point of view that there are “natural rights” that every person was born into. The Pursuit of Happiness is left for translation. It is not legal for anyone to tell another how to live their lives. The right to be left alone is one that never gets the press that freedom of religion does. I wonder why.


Let’s move on to the Constitution. Specifically, the Bill of Rights. The Fifth Amendment basically reads that no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. The Ninth claims that any rights not specifically mentioned in the Constitution are also guaranteed against government infringement. The Federal government has no jurisdiction over social policy. This was proven with the eighteenth amendment (Prohibition), due to its’ being repealed a few years later. There are certain things that people don’t want to be told they can and can’t do. I know there are some out there who think that the bible condemns these people, and it just may. If you want to be a part of a religion that hates, that is your right. The book in the Bible that claims it “is an abomination” is from the Old Testament, this is also the same book that tells of the grand history of the Jews. It is the Book of Deuteronomy, and Moses commits genocide on a scale that rivals another mass murderer, this time of German ancestry. It’s not natural, or it offends me as a person.” I’ve heard these arguments a million times, but think about it in this light. Ever heard of natural selection? Basically that the strong survive, and the weak are naturally killed off. Well, if these people want to get married, and not reproduce, what is the problem? The gene will be killed off, and your demagocracy will eventually be in place. Some Christians believe that the New Testament is their bag of beans. It exemplifies their lord and savior, a guy named Jesus. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I was raised a lowly catholic. I don’t ever remember Jesus saying that sodomites should be condemned, stoned, or anything else. I do however remember something about treating your neighbor with the same respect you’d want him to give you. A “silver rule” or something like that. Maybe it was bronze, lol anyway. These sodomite claims are based from the old testament. The same grouping of books, lore, and oral tradition stories that said it was alright for Moses to kill an entire race of people. No, wait. That’s not right. He and his army killed all of the men, women, and boys, but left the young girls to become slaves for the Israelites. That sounds like genocide and pedophilia to me, but like I said the catholic thing gets in the way sometimes. Perhaps some folks should really take a step back away from the demagogues that rule their lives. They should understand the basis of the very religion, and indeed the man whom they love so dearly, and take an honest look. What did he say? Don’t look in the bible, the answers are not there. Look up the book of Saint Thomas. This was a book that was excluded from the bible because it goes against everything the authors wanted Jesus to stand for, and what the church as a whole ( protestant and catholic) has become. Nicodemus is another. Let’s get back to the point. Our government can not even make a case for or against this practice. It is a State matter, and you “moral people” can take comfort when it does come down to that. I don’t think Alabama was ever a refuge for the gay and lesbian population….. Or is it?
Robert W.



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The following comments are for "Gay marriage"
by Robert Walker

interesting
You make some interesting points here, Robert. The OT laws especially interest me as they apply to people of the Jewish religion in particular although the Christian church does follow some of them as well. If the law 'a man should not lie with another man as he does with a woman' is to be obeyed, then what of the laws about men not cutting their beards or not working on the Sabbath? Seems to me that the 'law' about homosexuality has been lifted out of context and the other laws conveniently ignored.

Take care
Paul the Ogg

( Posted by: ogg [Member] On: June 1, 2005 )

the saga continues
It kills me that our government continually maintains its "seperation of church and state" in so many different ways, and yet when it comes to gay marriage it is suddenly the voice of God. This issue also stomps on our freedom of religion. You can believe what you want, as long as you obey MY GOD's rules. If burning people at the stake was still legal, it would be practiced frequently. We really haven't progressed far from it. The main difference now is that we burn their reputations, careers, and rights.

( Posted by: rancidsauce [Member] On: June 6, 2005 )

Gay Marriage
RobertWalker;

I will say this much; My opinion of course, In the Bible, it reads that GOD created Man, and took a rib from that man and made woman.. It did not say that GOD created man and man (Adam and Steve) or (Eve and Connie).

Also, if this world keep on sinning, it will be like (Soddom & Gomarrah) He will destroy every country, bit by bit until judgement day comes..

the devil is a liar.. he knows that a Man and Woman has to produce Children, which will be our future, and out of those future children are Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, Apostles, Bishops, etc... and if man and man or woman and woman get together, there is no reproduction of children...

the devil isn't as smart as he thinks he is..GOD gives some of us revelation of why he constantly getting into the heads of men and women..and that is to destroy them totally, and there is no reproduction of children.. Just my Opinion of course...

The Bible says, A Man should cleave to his wife when he is married and leave his family..

It did not say man cleave to his man. or woman to woman...

Blessings,
{{{Jeannie}}}

( Posted by: JEANNIE45 [Member] On: June 6, 2005 )

Robert Walker/ Opinions
Wow. I haven't read the comments yet, but I'm sure they'll be a hot bed.
First, more paragraphs would make this an easier read.
- On to subject, you are trying to be controvertial, aren't you, RW- ;)

I believe our constitution allows us unaileienable right, including life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness. No country before has tried to gaurentee those for its citizenree. Happines was not even expected in other times. Life is hard, get used to it- was the cry of former day. We are very luxorious now. I expect it will be the downfall of man. Sorry to be a bummer- (I was raised Catholic, too. I find it a trip, and a very interesting starting point for truth...)
blessings-
Elizabeth

( Posted by: emaks [Member] On: June 6, 2005 )

One more thing,
I have studied bible, and religion for about twenty years, on my own. I have no duplicitous reason for my thoughts. From Jahovah's Witnesses to Zen Buddishts, I see your way. It is all lovely.

( Posted by: emaks [Member] On: June 6, 2005 )

Gay marriage
Interesting, but really, it's only an issue for religious people. The rest of us shrug our shoulders. What is there to argue about? Where's the controversy?

Religious people opposed to gay marriage remind me of a blind man arguing about whether grass is green or fuscia. Everyone else just shakes their heads.

( Posted by: Viper9 [Member] On: June 7, 2005 )

lol
Viper9, I think its an issue between religious people, gay people, and people who believe in equal rights. Jeanie45, I understand your point of view. But you have to realize that this country was founded on the idea of religious freedom. Somewhere along the line that was taken as just Christian freedom. Its not. Its Mormon, Catholic, Buddhist, Judism, Muslim, Hinduism, Satanism, Wicca, Druidism, Cabalism, Khabalism, Siriusim and Discordianism freedom. I am sure there are a few more isms I could mention. Needless to say, only a couple of those are negative against homosexuality-ism.

Now being very familiar with the bible, I was always under the impression that the overall message was to lead people to Christ. But it seems to me that Christianity has been focusing more on condemnation rather than leadership. Let homosexuals get married. Let them buy realestate, raise kids, get jobs, go to the moon, and run for president. If your God is who he says he is (or in my opinion who men say he is) then he will be the one to judge. Meanwhile you have been focusing your efforts on actually LEADING people as opposed to making more enemies.

P.S. the devil had nothing to do with this comment.

( Posted by: rancidsauce [Member] On: June 7, 2005 )

Sorry!
randcisauce;
But I was not condemning anyone...Gay Marriage is as bad as man and woman saying they are married, when they are honestly living to gether, which the Law states, Common-Law Married. (That's a LIE).. Sin is Sin. Let GOD be true, and every man a LIAR! We as christians (Because I don't go by religion). Because there is all types of different religions out there,and yes we suppose to be trying to win the lost to Christ...I witness everyday, and there are souls who turn their lives around.. God hates sin; We love the sinner, but hates the sin.(that is a big difference. Make no mistake, I pray for the world daily,. I laugh and talk with the prostitutes, gang bangers, druggies, you name it..and witness to them about My Father which is in Heaven.

Different people have different issues.. it's their own opinion on different subjects. I stand by what I say, and the rest has to say what they feel. Besides, this is an Essay that Robert Walker posted .. Even though, I don't agree with some of his points, it is well written.

RobertWalker, I see what you are saying about the government and a lot of churches.. I do not judge, I only pray for people like that...God is the one to open the eyes of the Blind and show them that He is GOD. Well, that's it for me. I could go on and on, but I want.. got to get back to work.

In my Bible , it says the word of the Lord came unto Jeremiah saying, Behold, I am the Lord, The God of all flesh; Is there anything too hard for me. (Jeremiah 32: 26,27)

That is directed to the World also...He is the same God yesterday, today, and forever!

Blessings,
{{{Jeannie}}}

( Posted by: JEANNIE45 [Member] On: June 7, 2005 )

God
I have given much thought to the idea of god. When I first learned I would be a father, I sat back and thought about what is the cornerstone of a human character? Something to believe in. I don't really care if my kids become the High Dragon of the Satanic church of San Francisco, as long as they hold hope to their hearts. I also noticed that assuming one knows about something because it was written by a group of MEN along time ago is foolish. I would never pretend to know or understand something that is as omnipotent and omniscient as "IT". That's is being presumptuous, and children should never be brought into any church. Adults don't understand the things they do, and they want children to understand it too?
I had an episode regarding this very thing last night at work. I live in Alabama and work at a pizza joint. One of the employees is a fine young black lady. She said what really gets under her skin was the queenish gays. (in not so many words) I simply pointed out to her that not oo long ago in this very state I probably would have gotten my ass kicked and so would she if we had been talking or working like we had been. I also pointed out that it is just another form of hatred. I would never pretend to know or understand god therefore I wouldn't give it a name, address, or a face. I also wouldn't follow something that professed one love, but excluded so many.
RW

( Posted by: Robert Walker [Member] On: June 7, 2005 )

"Gay" Marriage
Jeannie's right.

williamhill

( Posted by: williamhill [Member] On: June 7, 2005 )

Fun game
Simply replace the word "God" with "leprechaun" when Christians speak or write and you see the nonsense for what it is. Good times.

( Posted by: Viper9 [Member] On: June 7, 2005 )

Geez, Viper
You are so jaded. Should people who believe in and write about "Leprechaun" be drowned in the sea? Or boiled in oil for expressing their deeply held views? Do you think the anti-Leprechaun march you and others are on is going to run Leprechaun believers away. That is more sauce for the goose, and you Non-Leprechaun believers never get it. More to the point of the piece though. The essay declares that "Gay" marraige should be a states-rights issue, not a federal issue. It most certainly a federal issue, not directly because of Leprechaun, but because of interstate commerce, for Leprechaun's sakes.If "Gays want to get married in Boston, for example, they can. But let's say, let's just say they want to move to Salt Lake City. Do you think the Mormon sect of Leprechaunites are going to recognize the union of such folly? No way. Let's say the happily "Gay" couple decides to move to Tulsa, where after living blissfully for 20 years they decide to split the sheets, so to speak. Do you think that the rock-solid Bible -belt Leprechauns would allow them to divorce there in ol' Tulsa. No way. Unless you kill or breed the Leprechaun out of this country, People who believe homosexuality is wrong will have a say. And therefore my great unwashed friend, that makes it a federal issue, (What with the interstate transfer of wealth and real property being the Commerce issue, which deems it FEDERAL. Capice?

williamLeprechaunbelievinghill.

( Posted by: williamhill [Member] On: June 7, 2005 )

Williamhill
Your point about the interstate problems for married homosexuals is a good one. Point taken!

And, no, I don't believe Leprechaunites should be tarred and feathered or imprisoned or tickled mercilessly or any such thing. They should be tolerated just as we tolerate flat-earthers and holocaust deniers -- as long as they don't try to import their lunacy into politics and law.

So we're balanced now: one agreement and (I expect) one disagreement!

( Posted by: Viper9 [Member] On: June 7, 2005 )

Remove God and Leprechauns
Remove them altogether. We need a "Religion" category if there isn't one already. There is a constant theology debate on this forum that is such a glut on the front page of comments.

Yet another angle.

And let it be known that I support gay marriage.

Another argument that I've heard here in not-Alabama is that of the benefits that are available to married couples. We currently have 'partner bennies', but not for hetero-partners. This has been a thorn in the side of voters on both sides of the fence. Some feel that gay marriage would be an end to that wishy-washy item.

I'd like to hear some of your great minds ruminate on that a bit. If the issue is being handled by "The Government", then let's focus on the more governable issues, which can be addressed. I'm interested in those.

Lans

( Posted by: GibsonGirl [Member] On: June 7, 2005 )

Partner bennies
What are the differences between partner bennies and spouse bennies? Are they significant?

(I'm not all that interested in "governable issues," most of the time. But I like theological issues. Together, GiGi, we are a balanced being.)

( Posted by: Viper9 [Member] On: June 7, 2005 )

Partners
Viper - you Pisces, too? That would be creepier than your avvy. But would make sense! haha

I work for a Catholic Non-Profit Healthcare Organization that does not subscribe to the partner benefit. It is not required, so of course that is the choice. Freedom to choose, right? They say enrollment is available to employees, their dependents and their "lawful spouses". See how things could change?

Public employees usually have the "domestic partner" benefit. It is the same as the spousal benefit. There are many hotbuttons there.

Lans

( Posted by: GibsonGirl [Member] On: June 7, 2005 )

Jorge
If religion was not an issue, then there would not be an issue, would there? But in many states, religous people of ALL stripes have opinions about moral issues. So you can't stick your head in the sand and pretend that these people(me included) are at least going to vote their convictions. That is the way this republic works.

I was curious about the education level south of Alabama. If your theory is correct.......

williamhill

( Posted by: williamhill [Member] On: June 10, 2005 )

racist slur of energizer bunny
MY BROTHER IS GAY! I love my brother. He's not going to hell. God loves my brother same as I love him. Jesus loves everybody the same.That was a mean racist slur you said williamhill to Jorgeluis. You are a hateful man and I don't want to say no more because you just never shut up and youu keep going and going like the energizer bunny.

( Posted by: Agape [Member] On: June 11, 2005 )

we
I will use "we" in the loosest form. The second we begin to think, and not react is our true downfall. Whilst we wonder about the ideals of man in a democratically depraved society and its' ramifications the ACTUAL "we the people" starve...and die. As we all do, I suppose, but the difference is that we usually do it with a full belly.
RW
(NFC where that came from I'm shitty on jack n coke)an' I always thoguht namaste was a greeting, or is it like aloha?
TY Tina
RW

( Posted by: Robert Walker [Member] On: June 12, 2005 )





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